Member Since: 01 Jun 2014
Location: St Neots
Posts: 1641
Quote:
Tax is there for policies that uphold the sum individual interests for mutual benefit. Perhaps the best way to put it is that tax is not for the public interest - tax is the public interest.
I fully agree with the principal, but a lot of the debate, especially the typical left vs right debate (epitomised by comrade Corbyn ) is what is in the public interest and what can the government do better than anyone else?
Whilst playing devils advocate earlier, the railways are a good example, laying track should be singularly coordinated otherwise we'll be back to a Victorian implementation of the railways which also did not work and ended in duplicated lines, redundancy, etc. So perhaps some government subsidy is a good thing, but that does not mean the mines, airlines, airports and everything in between should be nationalised.
Unfortunately, as soon as you firm up one view it just exposes another area of vagueness.Sill protection - LED internal lights - LED reverse lights - boot liner - Dog Guard - Rock sliders
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30th Aug 2016 3:48 pm
AAA.Happy.Disco1.Fan
Member Since: 04 Nov 2010
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 2895
Re: AAA.Happy.Disco1.fan
Lost for Words wrote:
BLFarrar wrote:
Lost for Words wrote:
What you mean is, you'd rather decide how Mr Branston spends his money...
No not me society......i.e. the same rules being applied equally & fairly
There's the crux of the matter - society. Why should society decide? Why shouldn't individuals be able to decide what to do with their own money? Why shouldn't individuals use the gains of their own ability?
Society is just a word that people hide behind to justify demanding loads of other people's money - where's the cause? Where's the depth of reason? Ahh, yes, that other word they hide behind - equality. The reality is that it's no different to a gang of school bullies pinching people's lunch money...
That is NOT a quotation of anything I've posted.
AAA
30th Aug 2016 4:00 pm
AAA.Happy.Disco1.Fan
Member Since: 04 Nov 2010
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 2895
Mr.Tom wrote:
Quote:
Tax is there for policies that uphold the sum individual interests for mutual benefit. Perhaps the best way to put it is that tax is not for the public interest - tax is the public interest.
I fully agree with the principal, but a lot of the debate, especially the typical left vs right debate (epitomised by comrade Corbyn ) is what is in the public interest and what can the government do better than anyone else?
Whilst playing devils advocate earlier, the railways are a good example, laying track should be singularly coordinated otherwise we'll be back to a Victorian implementation of the railways which also did not work and ended in duplicated lines, redundancy, etc. So perhaps some government subsidy is a good thing, but that does not mean the mines, airlines, airports and everything in between should be nationalised.
Unfortunately, as soon as you firm up one view it just exposes another area of vagueness.
Vis-a-Vis the Railways in UK, I gather that there's near unanimity on the necessity for subsidies.
The disputes seem to come about when those subsidies are then seen to go into paying dividends to the shareholders.
All sides recognise that without a dividend people and organizations wouldn't invest in 'services' such as the Railways.
The only way to cut this Gordian knot is to 'nationalize' the system, but in a more democratic mode of control so that politicians of all colours and shades can NOT play political football with the service, nor privatize it under any circumstances.
AAA
30th Aug 2016 4:11 pm
Mr.Tom
Member Since: 01 Jun 2014
Location: St Neots
Posts: 1641
^^^^ Nor have a union hold it to ransom Sill protection - LED internal lights - LED reverse lights - boot liner - Dog Guard - Rock sliders
What you mean is, you'd rather decide how Mr Branston spends his money...
No not me society......i.e. the same rules being applied equally & fairly
There's the crux of the matter - society. Why should society decide? Why shouldn't individuals be able to decide what to do with their own money? Why shouldn't individuals use the gains of their own ability?
Society is just a word that people hide behind to justify demanding loads of other people's money - where's the cause? Where's the depth of reason? Ahh, yes, that other word they hide behind - equality. The reality is that it's no different to a gang of school bullies pinching people's lunch money...
That is NOT a quotation of anything I've posted.
AAA
'Twas the subject entered by Bruce a while back - keeps being carried over with the quotes. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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Tax is there for policies that uphold the sum individual interests for mutual benefit. Perhaps the best way to put it is that tax is not for the public interest - tax is the public interest.
I fully agree with the principal, but a lot of the debate, especially the typical left vs right debate (epitomised by comrade Corbyn ) is what is in the public interest and what can the government do better than anyone else?
That was a different discussion (re the issue of tax collection and enforcement) and doesn't mean what I think you think I think...I think?
The point I make is that there is a set amount of taxation and level of enforcement that is the best possible for the benefit of the county's citizens - it is, in its very self, the public interest. When that limit is passed, it is not tax, it is theft, for it deprives of the best means.
Quote:
Whilst playing devils advocate earlier, the railways are a good example, laying track should be singularly coordinated otherwise we'll be back to a Victorian implementation of the railways which also did not work and ended in duplicated lines, redundancy, etc. So perhaps some government subsidy is a good thing, but that does not mean the mines, airlines, airports and everything in between should be nationalised.
Heck no! I'm a neo-liberal free-marketer; you won't normally catch me advocating nationalisation and I do so reluctantly. The railways are one area where I think the best practice differs because of natural factors.
As I said on the other thread - I believe in a government with only two areas of business; communications and national cohesion. Together they actually cover quite a lot (for example, education, health, environment and culture can be considered an integral part of communications in my book), but as a basis, it should be as small as possible and public spending should be based on service, not obligation. Following those principles, I find it quite easy to determine what should be public and what can stay private.
Quote:
Unfortunately, as soon as you firm up one view it just exposes another area of vagueness.
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30th Aug 2016 5:06 pm
adam
Member Since: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Home and Happy
Posts: 6917
Isn't AMTRAK in one the most free market economies in the world nationally owned? (but weirdly I think the tracks are in private ownership?)
I remember the good old days of BR in the '70's - dirty trains, crowded trains, always late, no or little investment (I remember the Bus trains where a bus body was grafted onto a train chassis)
The whole UK infrastructure was rubbish in those days compared to now though, so not really a fair comparison
The Pacers (bus trains) were actually quite a success - while they are no ideal vision of a train, they were a great solution to lack of funds and have proved extremely reliable to this date. They take a lot of flack, but while they aren't fast, on the right routes, they do get the job done.
Nothing like the screech of a Pacer as it pulls up at St David's. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Aug 2016 5:30 pm
adam
Member Since: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Home and Happy
Posts: 6917
Pacers - that was it - I just remember them being very uncomfortable
A bit off-topic but whole Public Transport network in Manchester was a joke in the 70's and 80's - best introduction ever was the Metrolink Tram system - and Manchester with its straight Georgian streets is perfect for trams - use them whenever going into Manchester, 10 minute drive to the free car park, 15 mins into town (or 11 to Old Trafford), come every 10 minutes and £3.20 Off Peak return - great
The days of BR are often cited as reason enough for a privatised system, but it must be said, the trains of BREL have really stood the test of time and still make a up a sizeable chunk of current rolling stock. After over 40 years in service, the Intercity 125 remains, in my and quite a few others' opinons, the most pleasant train to be on by some way - a triumph of British engineering! 8)Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Aug 2016 6:03 pm
AAA.Happy.Disco1.Fan
Member Since: 04 Nov 2010
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 2895
Mr.Tom wrote:
^^^^ Nor have a union hold it to ransom
I see.
Can one take it that your stance is that whilst certain people are at liberty to do almost anything with their money (as long as people like them have deemed it legal), other people should not gather together and decide what they're NOT going to do with their bodies and/or minds.
That is arguably slavery, or forced labour.
Will these people then be 'encouraged' to live in specially provided villages in the immediate vicinity of their place of work, and be paid in coin of THAT realm. Coin which will only be of value in that realm?
Will people who conspire to break these restrictions then be tried by a court of their betters and either executed, or transported to some prison planet?
Have you ever heard of Tolpuddle?
Ditto, Truck Act?
Ditto, Wilberforce, et alia?
Ditto, the 'American' civil war?
AAA
30th Aug 2016 6:09 pm
adam
Member Since: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Home and Happy
Posts: 6917
I remember the tilting train that used to make passengers sick - now at Crewe museum (I think - or is Rugby?)
Pendalino's are OK but I still feel a bit crap on them if I have to work on my Lap Top
I was only in my early teens in the 70's but like most of Nationalised Britain I guess BR suffered from no investment due to our over stretched economy, poor management and overly strong Unions
Yep, the APT is at Crewe. We sold the tilting technology which has now gone on to be the keystone of Alstom's Pendolinos today - pioneering technology that just arrived a bit before its time.
I've suffered quite badly on the Pendolinos; the small, poorly aligned windows combined with the tilting don't go down well, so I then vowed only to travel First Class in them. Even then it is not without its issues as an incident of head-butting a bulkhead proved... Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Aug 2016 6:29 pm
comedyharvey
Member Since: 04 Jul 2010
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 1727
AAA.Happy.Disco1.Fan wrote:
comedyharvey wrote:
This is welcome to the Socialist Utopia where anybody who dares to challenge the great leader or the party, to show them up for what they really are, is off to the gulag. Stripped of their knighthood of course.
Gulags were inherited from the Czars and the 'White Russians' who UK fought alongside.
But again and again you're mixing up Communism and Socialism. Now getting stuck to draw the line between certain sections of the P Tory Party and UKIP, NF, EDL is understandable, but between Communism and Socialism... dear oh, dear.
AAA
Oh really.
Once again a left wing class warrior is happy to distort an inconvenient history.
The acronym Gulag was not in use until the Soviet era, being a Soviet organisation formed in 1918.
Whatever methods the White Russians used, they were not Gulags, the term hadn't been invented.
So if you are going to correct people it might be worth checking your own facts first.
Then again, like most of your left wing ilk, the truth seems not to be high on your priorities. Especially if you can slur your own country in the event.
And where have I mixed up communism and socialism? Not that I care.Arthur.
Comedy was a horse, Harvey a dog, both sadly gone. Thought I was choosing a password!
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30th Aug 2016 6:31 pm
adam
Member Since: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Home and Happy
Posts: 6917
[quote="
I've suffered quite badly on the Pendolinos; the small, poorly aligned windows combined with the tilting don't go down well, so I then vowed only to travel First Class in them. Even then it is not without its issues as an incident of head-butting a bulkhead proved... [/quote]
Especially when you get a seat with no window
I always used to travel First Class, but not any more as I have to travel to London in Peak times now vs. Off Peak before - and its soooo expensive
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) is what is in the public interest and what can the government do better than anyone else?
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)
