....then its on topic
Corby - Train Journey
Train Journey on a Virgin Train
Virgin Train - Sir Branston Pickle
Branson Pickle - tax exile
It has one common denominator Branston
having said that what about Apple & Ireland...BREXIT - done properly.
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30th Aug 2016 7:15 am
Mr.Tom
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30th Aug 2016 8:17 am
crews control
Member Since: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Dorset
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It's the same answer for all of them including Virgin:
If you don't like the way they pay tax, change the law and close the legal loopholes.
Of course, if we close all the tax loopholes, then the UK could make ourselves uncompetitive on a global scale. But even that won't bother large corporations very much. Either products we want to buy in the UK will get more expensive or they'll simply move their HQ's elsewhere.
Some people appear to think these companies have feelings! They're just companies... who's Boards are legally required to operate them in the most efficient way possible. There's a new buzz phrase of "corporate social responsibility" but really it's just another marketing tool. Getting all bitter and twisted about these companies and the amount of tax they pay is simply pointless... they don't care because they're not a person, just a corporate body! They won't leave the UK out of spite, they'll just locate to the most efficient location possible. No bad feelings.
Just change the rules to what you want and see what happens.2005 D3 HSE 2011 D4 Landmark 2016 D4 HSE Lux
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Fair point, open access TOC would be much better, I.e. Competition on a line, rather than a slice of a monopoly.
I am still not convinced they should be subsidised though... that goes back to the argument there are other methods of transport, perhaps some even in their infancy which would fill the void. The old free market allocation of capitol argument
The issue is that to get real competition, you'd have to privatise the lot. Universally valid tickets would mostly have to go, and I think the guarentee of reaching your destination so long as you stick to the minimum change times would also be gone between TOCs. Through ticketing would likely not be available for many journeys and competition would be unlikely to reach high enough levels for TOCs to tackle overcrowding.
There are other methods of transport, but the railways are the best form of transport - efficient, safe, fast and accessible. We should help make them the transport of choice as often as possible by making them more useable; more space, frequent trains, more ticket offices and a non-restrictive turn up and go culture. Other forms of transport will benefit also - if more people use the train, there'll be fewer people on the roads and at airports - and the improvements to the economy would be had by all. Improving communications are what government is all about, so a fair case for subsidy IMO. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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What you mean is, you'd rather decide how Mr Branston spends his money...
No not me society......i.e. the same rules being applied equally & fairly
There's the crux of the matter - society. Why should society decide? Why shouldn't individuals be able to decide what to do with their own money? Why shouldn't individuals use the gains of their own ability?
Society is just a word that people hide behind to justify demanding loads of other people's money - where's the cause? Where's the depth of reason? Ahh, yes, that other word they hide behind - equality. The reality is that it's no different to a gang of school bullies pinching people's lunch money...Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Aug 2016 9:31 am
Mr.Tom
Member Since: 01 Jun 2014
Location: St Neots
Posts: 1641
Lost for Words wrote:
Mr.Tom wrote:
Fair point, open access TOC would be much better, I.e. Competition on a line, rather than a slice of a monopoly.
I am still not convinced they should be subsidised though... that goes back to the argument there are other methods of transport, perhaps some even in their infancy which would fill the void. The old free market allocation of capitol argument
The issue is that to get real competition, you'd have to privatise the lot. Universally valid tickets would mostly have to go, and I think the guarentee of reaching your destination so long as you stick to the minimum change times would also be gone between TOCs. Through ticketing would likely not be available for many journeys and competition would be unlikely to reach high enough levels for TOCs to tackle overcrowding.
There are other methods of transport, but the railways are the best form of transport - efficient, safe, fast and accessible. We should help make them the transport of choice as often as possible by making them more useable; more space, frequent trains, more ticket offices and a non-restrictive turn up and go culture. Other forms of transport will benefit also - if more people use the train, there'll be fewer people on the roads and at airports - and the improvements to the economy would be had by all. Improving communications are what government is all about, so a fair case for subsidy IMO.
Other modes of transport, such as airlines manage cross ticketing and through journeys. Even with competition from each other on the same routes.
A framework needs providing that generates genuine competition, it would not prohibit firms working together to provide longer journeys etc. whilst competing in other areas.Sill protection - LED internal lights - LED reverse lights - boot liner - Dog Guard - Rock sliders
Indeed, but they don't have the same constraints as the railways. You get on a plane and you go from A to B; you know exactly who is onboard. Get on a train and you have a choice of routes, all of which the companies bicker over, and you can't track where people go/which train they catch without restricting the tickets or causing huge delays and congestion. Undoubtedly, TOCs would work together to provide through services etc., but they would likely pair up to do so, rather than have genuinely open tickets.
The minute you start to organise these issues, you find yourself ironing out the competition you are trying to emphasise. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Aug 2016 10:03 am
Moo D3 Decade
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Many of us on here are self employed or own our own companies. I'm sure we all maximise our incomes and company strctures to be as tax efficient as possible and pay as little tax as we can. I certainly do, but I do it legally. How does that make us any different from Green or Branson, who haven't done anything illegal?New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!)
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30th Aug 2016 10:19 am
nickprice
Member Since: 01 Mar 2011
Location: Den Haag
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Re: AAA.Happy.Disco1.fan
Lost for Words wrote:
There's the crux of the matter - society. Why should society decide? Why shouldn't individuals be able to decide what to do with their own money? Why shouldn't individuals use the gains of their own ability?
"A selfish soldier, after all, is known as a coward, not a hero."
crews control wrote:
It's the same answer for all of them including Virgin:
If you don't like the way they pay tax, change the law and close the legal loopholes.
Unfortunately the current tax system is so complicated for exactly this reason, loopholes are closed, exceptions are inserted and so it goes on. I believe that the crux of tax law should be based on what is meant by the "spirit" of the legislation and when it comes to applying these laws that should be interpreted by impartial people qualified to do so (tax judges if you will). If you don't want to play within the spirit of the rules then don't play. That's not to say that legitimate tax breaks shouldn't be available if it makes economic sense to do so, but they must be made on a case-by-case basis and the reasoning must be clear.
"I think a major reason why intellectuals tend to move towards collectivism is that the collectivist answer is a simple one. If there’s something wrong, pass a law and do something about it." - Milton Friedman
Lost for Words wrote:
Society is just a word that people hide behind to justify demanding loads of other people's money - where's the cause? Where's the depth of reason? Ahh, yes, that other word they hide behind - equality. The reality is that it's no different to a gang of school bullies pinching people's lunch money...
And I've leave you with a quote from that lovely lady Ayn Rand, she seems to agree...
"The idea that 'the public interest' supersedes private interests and rights can have but one meaning: that the interests and rights of some individuals take precedence over the interests and rights of others." - Ayn Rand D3 SE with Hankook MT 275/65/R18, IID BT Tool, ProSpeed rock/tree sliders + compressor guard, RLD sump guard & winch tray + 13,000lb hidden winch, Gearbox guard, Frontrunner 80l aux tank with fuel gauge, V8 brake upgrade, Traxide USI-160 dual battery system, Frontrunner ladder, custom boot storage, Lazer LED driving lights, de-cat exhaust, Aftermarket Oro TPMS, i7 Mac Mini touch screen install (running Windows 10) mirrored on rear screens.
30th Aug 2016 11:07 am
crews control
Member Since: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Dorset
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Moo wrote:
How does that make us any different from Green or Branson, who haven't done anything illegal?
Because you haven't 'outed' Corbyn as a liar. 2005 D3 HSE 2011 D4 Landmark 2016 D4 HSE Lux
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30th Aug 2016 11:13 am
crews control
Member Since: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Dorset
Posts: 5011
nickprice wrote:
I believe that the crux of tax law should be based on what is meant by the "spirit" of the legislation and when it comes to applying these laws that should be interpreted by impartial people qualified to do so (tax judges if you will).
It's a nice idea, but not really workable in the real world. How do you interpret the "spirit" of the legislation? It might mean something different to you and me. And where do these impartial tax judges come from? Do they have any friends? I think it's much fairer to have solid rules that everyone has to play to.
This thread also seems to be confused between personal taxation and corporate taxation which can't possibly have the same rules. There's a difference between whether Richard Branson or his many Virgin brands have paid the right amount of UK tax.
A lot of these tax loopholes seem to involve living or locating your business in any foreign land that offers potential tax advantages. How do you stop this? If you make the tax situation in the UK less competitive, won't you make the situation worse?2005 D3 HSE 2011 D4 Landmark 2016 D4 HSE Lux
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30th Aug 2016 11:41 am
nickprice
Member Since: 01 Mar 2011
Location: Den Haag
Posts: 317
That's why I used the example of 'tax judges', in my mind it is no different to how the judicial system works (so the idea that people would be influenced by personal affiliations would be moot - conflict of interest and all that). In addition a rational would need to be given for an exemptions, demonstrating that they are in the public good (open to everyone to critique). How it is applied is fairly straightforward as it just a simplified version of our current tax laws with common sense applied over the top (by people who have demonstrated that have this quality - again in theory similar to the judicial system but specifically on applicability of tax regulations). The current system clearly isn't working, just look at the outrage it has caused. I don't know if this is really practical but it seems to be one way of avoid this constant cycle of plugging the holes only to create new ones.
Regarding the difference between personal and corporate taxation, I would see this method principally applying to corporate taxation.
Again, I'm not arguing against loopholes where it makes sense, but the key point is that it must be considered and must make sense for our economy (and be transparent - no secret deals), not a free ride.D3 SE with Hankook MT 275/65/R18, IID BT Tool, ProSpeed rock/tree sliders + compressor guard, RLD sump guard & winch tray + 13,000lb hidden winch, Gearbox guard, Frontrunner 80l aux tank with fuel gauge, V8 brake upgrade, Traxide USI-160 dual battery system, Frontrunner ladder, custom boot storage, Lazer LED driving lights, de-cat exhaust, Aftermarket Oro TPMS, i7 Mac Mini touch screen install (running Windows 10) mirrored on rear screens.
30th Aug 2016 11:51 am
crews control
Member Since: 18 Mar 2007
Location: Dorset
Posts: 5011
Seems until we leave Europe, we're not able to have a more competitive tax system anyway!
This story is quite relevant to our discussion today...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-372207992005 D3 HSE 2011 D4 Landmark 2016 D4 HSE Lux
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The fuss over tax is all because it is perceived in the wrong way. The government is our government. The tax is not our tax, but the government's tax. The fact it is our government's tax does not make it our tax. The differential should be made so as to represent the best spending practice. I put it to one that it is undoubtedly beneficial for those who find ways of avoiding tax to do so.
Anyone would think these people we're stealing food from the hands of starving children or something.
nickprice wrote:
Lost for Words wrote:
There's the crux of the matter - society. Why should society decide? Why shouldn't individuals be able to decide what to do with their own money? Why shouldn't individuals use the gains of their own ability?
"A selfish soldier, after all, is known as a coward, not a hero."
Entirely correct principle - but it doesn't mean that. Government is a tool to do stuff for everyone's benefit where it is a better way to do so. It isn't always best to use government, and it is therefore unreasonable to expect the tax system to be completely bulletproof or to expect anybody to pay more tax than the law demands. The law is designed as a clear line for everyone's benefit - people can't pick and choose where to put it as suits. Everyone knows the score; everyone is protected from vexatious litigation.
Tax is there for policies that uphold the sum individual interests for mutual benefit. Perhaps the best way to put it is that tax is not for the public interest - tax is the public interest.
(Indidently - did mathematicians really waste their time working out what can so easily be determined by simple logic instead? )
Quote:
crews control wrote:
It's the same answer for all of them including Virgin:
If you don't like the way they pay tax, change the law and close the legal loopholes.
Unfortunately the current tax system is so complicated for exactly this reason, loopholes are closed, exceptions are inserted and so it goes on. I believe that the crux of tax law should be based on what is meant by the "spirit" of the legislation and when it comes to applying these laws that should be interpreted by impartial people qualified to do so (tax judges if you will). If you don't want to play within the spirit of the rules then don't play. That's not to say that legitimate tax breaks shouldn't be available if it makes economic sense to do so, but they must be made on a case-by-case basis and the reasoning must be clear.
"I think a major reason why intellectuals tend to move towards collectivism is that the collectivist answer is a simple one. If there’s something wrong, pass a law and do something about it." - Milton Friedman
As usual, Mr Friedman is spot on. The easy choice; to hell with everyone else, we shall shoot ourselves in the foot.
Quote:
Lost for Words wrote:
Society is just a word that people hide behind to justify demanding loads of other people's money - where's the cause? Where's the depth of reason? Ahh, yes, that other word they hide behind - equality. The reality is that it's no different to a gang of school bullies pinching people's lunch money...
And I've leave you with a quote from that lovely lady Ayn Rand, she seems to agree...
"The idea that 'the public interest' supersedes private interests and rights can have but one meaning: that the interests and rights of some individuals take precedence over the interests and rights of others." - Ayn Rand
She is spot on, and her philosophy of Objectivism is one very close to my own. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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