But it's hard to ignore the hate that eminates from many Scots - I don't believe it is reciprocal
See above post from BLFarrar and be assured that's the tip of the iceberg. Just go to the comments section of the BBC website to see the real disdain flowing north.
Of course, it comes from both sides, on a pro-rata basis - 10 from the south to 1 in the north...... The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom
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Salmond though needs to stop lying to the people of Scotland, there will be no sharing of the pound,
how can you share something you cant have, & shouldn't have if there is true independence
A.J.M wrote:
....it would never and will never work,
Thanks for the honesty. Very refreshing
[quote="A.J.M"] has a strange concept of Divorce though as he seems to think that his ex will be fine sharing the bank account and will pick up the tab if he over spends on the credit card.
brilliant analogy
A.J.M wrote:
Salmond idea of leaving home is that mummy will still do the washing and pop round with your dinner every night and dad will bail you out if it all gets to much. Not really Independence,
Brilliant analogy
A.J.M wrote:
if we want it we must accept that we are on our own, end of.
Every nuance of so called debate is making sure this will be permanent indeed
A.J.M wrote:
vote is NO. It has always been NO, and shall always remain. NO.
again thanks for the balance of the discussion / argumentBREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
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So what currency do we use then? We can't use the pound and we can't use the Euro.
We can't use the Euro but we CAN use the pound and there is NOTHING Westminster can do about it. It makes sense to use the pound on both sides of the border, so it's better to do it within an agreed framework. Even Alistair Darling and Alistair Carmichael both stated in 2013 that a currency union would be the logical way forward, but they have changed their tune now that they seem to be loosing a lot of ground.
A.J.M wrote:
The SNP want to have a higher public sector, with lower taxes... put their faith in oil which goes up/down in price. How does that work?
For (hopefully) the last time, we are not voting for or against the SNP.
A.J.M wrote:
My vote is NO. It has always been NO, and shall always remain. NO.
Then there is little point in me trying to enlighten you! The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom
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17th Feb 2014 11:43 pm
highlands
Member Since: 11 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5098
Re: JMC...
JMC wrote:
When rUK looses 10% of it's GDP, looses the foundations upon which its £1.3Trillion debt is based (oil reserves)
How important do you think N.Sea Oil & Gas is to the UK economy?
Do you really think that £1.3tn of debt is based on an annual income of c.£4-6bn?
It's not a piddling amount but it is far from the be all and end all of the UK economy.
JMC wrote:
...to stem the flow of sterling to 'anything else please'
Have you seen how Sterling responded to the announcement that an 'independent' Scotland will not get to keep Sterling? (hint: it strengthened)Black 05 TDV6 HSE Auto
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17th Feb 2014 11:46 pm
Garagegmx
Member Since: 09 Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 916
JMC - "Then there is little point in me trying to enlighten you!"
Great, can the Mods lock the thread now please.
Last edited by Garagegmx on 17th Feb 2014 11:47 pm. Edited 1 time in total
17th Feb 2014 11:46 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
The reason I said GDP would drop is that almost 70% of Scottish output goes to the rest of the UK, so if the currency changes and there is instability UK companies will probably look elsewhere affecting GDP. In time it might recover, but it's a tough market at the moment. If prices are squeezed and costs rise then GDP will fall so the economic plan doesn't balance, it's just the way business is.
In return Englands exports to Scotland are a much much lower percentage, but that does not make them any less important.
The ability for Scotland to borrow will be affected without the € or £, so again costs will rise. Trading and currency fluctuations will affect business. Look at the inflation that happened in the euro countries when their currency changed. It might be OK if there were massive reserves or huge borrowing capability to weather it out, but there aren't at the moment.
Sorry but your mention of the M25 and loan lady being left alone is as stereotypical as a ginger bloke from Scotland. There are many places (including where I live) in England where you would automatically stop to help (and many you wouldn't) and I also know plenty of places where it wouldn't happen in Scotland.
Do you really believe that the Scottish government will be any different to the UK government once they settle in. I think you'll find there is a equal amount of frustration about what the UK government does by English people, it's just that for some reason Scottish people seem to think it's specifically aimed at them and they are not understood. You have a equally diverse population as we do in England, just because your Scottish won't make a government of Scottish people understand you any better, it hasn't worked for us and it is misguided to think it will. The division of wealth to specific areas will also happen in Scotland as it has in any other country.
As I say we are better off together and the arguments don't stack up for either of us to be independent. In reality the grass is not always greener. During this world recession it would be foolhardy to pursue a totally independent country, it would be better to address and campaign for the things which are important to Scotland while being part of the UK. As somebody from England I would not want to leave the UK. I always think of the Union Jack as the main flag
Last edited by countrywide on 17th Feb 2014 11:55 pm. Edited 1 time in total
17th Feb 2014 11:47 pm
A.J.M
Member Since: 31 Oct 2009
Location: Carluke
Posts: 2833
I would like to add that i don't have any hard feelings to my English neighbours. I have yet to have any negative feelings from English mates over this.
I went on a lads holiday a couple of year's ago with 4 of you lot. I still beat 2 of them to an evenings company with a rather skilled German woman.. ( benefit's of being young! )
I do however, curse every one of you lot when my car breaks... Plus the last one which took breaking down as a hobby.. The you were all
In loving memory of FA54WSK.
Rest well old friend, your work is done.
17th Feb 2014 11:47 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
I will use my own quotes ...annotated to embellish the effects...I haven't an issue quoting myself
BLFarrar wrote:
means zero or less to most of the population in the rest of the UK......lots arent even merely concerned - the others are...bit like the situation north of the border
They see Scotland as a mere district...well it is
they (some south of the border (sassennachs) couldn't give two hoots...they dont
Mr Salmond (maybe King Salmond)....or the cold fish Ms Sturgeon....well isn't he/she
Most here south of the border dont see the arguments as being valid...if they are bothered at all
load of boloney....to be frank it is
The go it alone one is an even bigger load of tripe......also true
do independents really think that Scotland even matters in the scheme of things.......ask about it doesnt
Scotland means ZERO...to most other countries that count in the scheme of things...where ?
Mr Salmon is seen as a lot (not a bit) of a dictator.........actually a lot...eff off & good riddance hopefully
what is being seen currently is a bit 3rd Reich-ish....study the texts & see the similarities....I mean read & really comprehend ..the consequences of actions
Mr Salmon is a prick of the first order, extrordinaire, with oak leaves.......well isn't he ?
THIS my friend is EXACTLY why we want/need independence....maybe it would be best if its independence
if the right thing were to happen..the whole of the UK votes. ..majority may just want to vote Scotland out......the word used in Northern Ireland is Lundies...look this up
When rUK looses 10% of it's GDP, looses the foundations upon which its £1.3Trillion debt is based (oil reserves)(Scottish ???), doubles its balance of payments deficit overnight, finds its interest rates heading skyward to stem the flow of sterling to 'anything else please' by foreign investors and struggles to turn on a light switch, perhaps I'll come back and remind you WHY SCOTLAND MATTERS MORE THAN ZERO. [/quote]...facts & opinions...I dont think the data you have quoted is quite factual... but I will check this out & with great pleasure remind youBREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
17th Feb 2014 11:57 pm
A.J.M
Member Since: 31 Oct 2009
Location: Carluke
Posts: 2833
Really, we can use their currency. Have NO backup if it goes wrong. Have NO say in interest rates etc.
So, the Chancellor AND the head of the bank of England are BOTH wrong on this?
Silly them, surely by now, they will have had people discuss this, weigh up the pro's and cons and make a choice based on findings and evidence...
Then present this in, say, a speech with figures and facts to be examined.
I don't read any of the other scottish parties putting forward their own independence policies. All i see is SNP made up stuff, that hasn't been thought out properly or stand to reason when examined in the cold light of day.
I have read at great depth over the sides, one side has factual evidence and economic figures on it's side. A large number of businesses all speaking out in favour of it.
The other... doesn't.
I'm enlightened enough to see an own goal and a shot foot appearing.
Countrywide, never knew a starter motor used oil...
The less said about the Freelander's issues the better. In loving memory of FA54WSK.
Rest well old friend, your work is done.
17th Feb 2014 11:59 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 14235
In the whole debate several facts have appeared:
1. There will be no currency union: Chancellor of the Exchequer and Shadow Chancellor of Her Majesties opposition.
2. Currency union is fraught with issues and is not a practicable solution: Chief Secretary to the Exchequer.
3. Currency union will be very difficult and it should not be assumed it will be granted: Governor of the Bank of England.
4. An independent Scotland will find it problematic joining the EU. Its not a given. President of The European union.
This is not an attempt at bullying but key institutions setting out the reality of the situation.
Whatever Mr Salmond says, he can't brush over the facts: All he has to offer is wishful thinking and hope and that doesn't make a country.
How important do you think N.Sea Oil & Gas is to the UK economy?
Do you really think that £1.3tn of debt is based on an annual income of c.£4-6bn?
It's not a piddling amount but it is far from the be all and end all of the UK economy.
Have you read the McCrone report?
£1.3Trillion debt based on £4-6Bn pa with reserves of about £1.5Trillion makes a hell of a lot more sense than £1.3Trillion debt based on only 10% of the above. There's much more than oil in Scotland and it's just the icing on a cake.
highlands wrote:
Have you seen how Sterling responded to the announcement that an 'independent' Scotland will not get to keep Sterling? (hint: it strengthened)
Keep watching the international news..... One thing BLF said that I agree with is that the Scottish stuff isn't of prime international concern. I very much doubt if the money market stabilised/improved over over Osbornes few minutes in Edinburgh.The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom
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18th Feb 2014 12:27 am
Simonstarski
Member Since: 24 Jun 2012
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 686
In response to George Osborne saying Scotland can't keep the pound, Wee Eck today said in reply that it would cost uk companies £500million in currency charges. Quoted below..
"This charge - let's call it the George Tax - this would be impossible to sell to English business, to be charged by their own Chancellor for the privilege of exporting goods to Scotland."
Wee Eck clearly doesn't understand business very well.
I'll try and enlighten him.. As someone who ships product to many different countries I'd like to point out that any currency charges/trading taxes are added on in full to the cost of the product.
As such, it will not cost uk companies a single penny. It will however cost the Scottish people more money for all the items they need to import. Did someone mention inflation yet
As a member of the EU and the free trade agreement this won't work in reverse. We the uk have the freedom to shop elsewhere.
Cue Scottish job losses, fall in GDP high unemployment.. A bit like Greece only without the bail out funds.Narpy Grill, tinted windows, Smooth leather wheel (TLO Group buy), ACM fitted (thanks TLO), Rear door loom and Row 2 & 3 audio switch upgrade, RRS 20" wheel change, 285 Cooper LTZ's Sat Nav Mod (until I get a Faultmate upgrade), Front & Rear lamp guards. 4x4 screen now switched on - Woody32, Follow me home reverse lights - woody32, Auto release EPB - Woody32. Off Road Navigation - Woody32. Remap + EGR's switched off. Full chassis clean and Waxoyl.
1. There will be no currency union: Chancellor of the Exchequer and Shadow Chancellor of Her Majesties opposition.
2. Currency union is fraught with issues and is not a practicable solution: Chief Secretary to the Exchequer.
4. An independent Scotland will find it problematic joining the EU. Its not a given. President of The European union.
Nobody there without a vested interest. In the words of Robin Day to John Knott - "Here today, Gone tomorrow politicians." They ALL have reasons to promote a No vote.
Moo wrote:
3. Currency union will be very difficult and it should not be assumed it will be granted: Governor of the Bank of England.
He also said that the BoE would make it work and was very pragmatic about the whole thing, whilst Barclays Chief Executive Antony Jenkins says the bank "can make it work" if Scotland votes for independence.
Moo wrote:
Whatever Mr Salmond says, he can't brush over the facts: All he has to offer is wishful thinking and hope and that doesn't make a country.
The facts here are the BoE and Barclays. The rest is political BS.
Once again, we are NOT VOTING FOR/AGAINST ALEX SALMONDThe older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom
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18th Feb 2014 12:37 am
highlands
Member Since: 11 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5098
JMC wrote:
We can't use the Euro but we CAN use the pound and there is NOTHING Westminster can do about it.
Wrong. In the same way we could use the pound and there is nothing Westminster could do about it, we could also use the Euro and there is nothing that Brussels/Frankfurt could do about it. We could also use the US Dollar and there's nothing Washington could do about it (as Ecuador does).
However, outside of currency union we cannot use the pound and have control over our fiscal policy, or run long-term deficits, in which case we'd end of hocking the oil to the highest (low) bidder like Ecuador did with China.
JMC wrote:
It makes sense to use the pound on both sides of the border, so it's better to do it within an agreed framework.
It makes sense to use the pound both sides if we have a fiscal and political union (let's call it the United Kingdom for now ) in the same way that it only makes sense for members of the Eurozone to use the Euro if they have an over-riding fiscal/political union...as has been made painfully apparent.
The argument Salmond used that it would cost English businesses a great deal in transaction costs is even more persuasive with respect to the EU, but we have chosen not to join Euro in spite of these costs because we recognise the wider risks - that of bailing out other members and the inevitable move toward much closer fiscal/political union.
Of course, outside of a currency union, Scottish businesses would be proportionately much harder hit given that c.70% of their exports are to RUK whereas Scotland accounts for c.11% of RUK exports.
JMC wrote:
£1.3Trillion debt based on £4-6Bn pa with reserves of about £1.5Trillion makes a hell of a lot more sense than £1.3Trillion debt based on only 10% of the above. There's much more than oil in Scotland and it's just the icing on a cake.
And there's much more than oil in the UK...hence why of the £600bn of government receipts, about 1% of it comes from receipts from North Sea oil and gas.Black 05 TDV6 HSE Auto
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