Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 72921
Or elevated it to beer!!
9th Feb 2014 9:08 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20786
Quote:
Thank you all for the time you’ve taken to reply to my posts and offer alternative views and information.
I have spent many, many hours over the last year trying to figure out what the real situation is around the referendum debate, and have finally come to the conclusion that it is a futile exercise. A phrase from one of the Harry Potter films sums it up when someone said something like “many things are spoken, but whether the truth lies among them remains unclearâ€.
Fact, lies, deceit and spin are all mixed up in a hopeless muddle from all sides. While a lot that is spouted (especially by rank and file campaigners) is rubbish or unsupported emotional aspirations, a lot more, if you dig down, does appear to be credible proven fact with authoritative sources. Even that however is normally presented out of context, and / or ignoring other factors which turn out to be crucial to understanding their true implication. I (along with, I suspect, nearly everyone else in Scotland) have neither the knowledge nor the experience to be able to identify reliably what is spin and what is real and balanced information. And now, I don’t have the time either as my life has changed (for the better!) and for the next few months, my days will be very full. And it scares me that most of the politicians themselves probably have no more of a balanced understanding of the implications than anyone else – they’re too busy finding ways of presenting things to suit their own biased agenda.
I do not see how things are going to get any clearer, since it is the nature of politics that nobody is interested in presenting a balanced picture. They are only interested in finding ways of convincing the voters to see things their way, and will do whatever they can get away with to achieve their ends, skillfully blending real facts with half truths, spin and selective information. I ask myself what is likely to be achieved by more endless debate re-covering the same points over and over again in the same inadequate way. And I conclude that it’s a waste of time.
So how can I decide which way to vote?
Since I’ve got absolutely no idea what an independent Scotland will be like to live in – whether it will be better or worse, a success or a catastrophe, I’ve nothing to base a decision on except gut instinct, which is totally the wrong way for us to decide. So, unless something happens between now and the referendum to give me real, balanced answers to a lot of the unknowns (and that seems extremely unlikely!), I’m going to be forced to come down firmly on the ‘no’ side.
I’ll put my reasons why ‘no’ in a separate post in due course. But it is with reluctance, because I love Scotland, its culture, its people, its music. I was born and have lived all my life here, with roots all over Scotland, from Orkney, Caithness and the west coast (and some from England and overseas as well). It would be great to be part of a proud independent country making its way in the world, prosperous, generous and becoming a role model for other small countries. But I have no confidence that things would turn out that way. This is the reason I’ve spent so much time and effort trying to get to the bottom of all the spin – trying to convince myself that I should support independence. Sadly, I have failed.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Was lifted straight from another websiteMy D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
It is a very good piece and reflects the thoughts of quite a few that I know.
Sadly for every considered voter (either for yes or for no) we will have the rash, the young, the blinkered and the terminally stupid.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2884
Watched 'Train Spotting' again last night and Euan MacGregor's character summed it up pretty well; (grossly paraphrasing) - 'Proud to be Scottish whilst still content at being colonised by a bunch of arrogant English Wa ers'Currently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
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9th Feb 2014 11:09 pm
highlands
Member Since: 11 Jan 2010
Location: NW Highlands
Posts: 5098
Disco_Mikey wrote:
The No campaign say don't go, it won't work, with no real explanation...
I think they point to independent bodies like the IFS. Surely a viewpoint of UK Gov't wouldn't be believed more than that produced by the IFS?
IFS wrote:
An independent Scotland would require a significant cut in spending or increase in taxes, over and above that already announced by the UK government, in order to put their long-term public finances onto a sustainable footing. The scale of this fiscal tightening is likely to be greater than that required for the UK as a whole.
Even under the most optimistic scenario we consider, the long-run ‘fiscal gap’ in Scotland would be 1.9% of national income compared to 0.8% of national income for the UK as a whole.
Disco_Mikey wrote:
While I am still a No, it's easy to see why more and more people are changing to Yes
I don't know why that should be the case.
The more you see the implications of independence the more you should be wary of it.
Disco_Mikey wrote:
The Yes crowd keep comparing us to Norway, telling us how well they are doing being independent.
Quote:
An independent Scotland could chose to invest in a similar fund.
It can't chose to invest in a similar fund without choosing to borrow money to put into it.
That is quite clear from the IFS saying (per above) that Scotland will need to be borrowing proportionately more than RUK in the long run, unless taxes go up a lot or spending is substantially reduced.Black 05 TDV6 HSE Auto
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10th Feb 2014 12:30 am
Wee-Guy
Member Since: 06 Jan 2014
Location: Sunny Govano
Posts: 97
The main problem trying to get people to vote yes is that many people fear change.......Mostly in my opinion these are people who are in business and are doing well financially as things are.....Those people do not want to risk their businesses going under and fair play to them......but not everyone is in the position of being financially well off. I think Tommy Sheridan makes a good argument for independence and in truth I cannot disagree with many of his points.
Take some time to listen to what in my opinion is a very elequent and persuasive argument for voting independence.
And I am by no means a fan of Sheridan's quite the opposite in fact, but on independence I agree with his thoughts here.
Member Since: 16 Nov 2010
Location: Perth & Kinross
Posts: 624
I did wonder when Tommy would jump on the band wagon....
I'm afraid I'm really not interested in anything he says....
11th Feb 2014 3:50 pm
waterbuoy
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2884
Currently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
Previously:
TD5 Defender 110 CSW (230k miles)
300TDi Disco 1 (289k)
4 RR Classics (300-350k each, 2 manual, 2 auto)
110 V8 CSW (220k)
S3 109 hi cap pickup (ex RN)
S2A 88 Safari SW with lpg conversion (bloody lethal)
11th Feb 2014 3:57 pm
Wee-Guy
Member Since: 06 Jan 2014
Location: Sunny Govano
Posts: 97
haroosh wrote:
I did wonder when Tommy would jump on the band wagon....
I'm afraid I'm really not interested in anything he says....
A closed mind....excellent.
11th Feb 2014 7:01 pm
Rescue01
Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 2468
haroosh wrote:
I did wonder when Tommy would jump on the band wagon....
I'm afraid I'm really not interested in anything he says....
True he is a wa r Its not the height of the fall but the sudden stop at the bottom that hurts!!
11th Feb 2014 7:50 pm
A.J.M
Member Since: 31 Oct 2009
Location: Carluke
Posts: 2826
Tommy is a grade A, class 1 full blown bell end.
I wouldn't give him the pleasure of breathing in my after curry farts, let alone my time to listen to his drivel.In loving memory of FA54WSK.
Rest well old friend, your work is done.
11th Feb 2014 8:58 pm
waterbuoy
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2884
Currently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
Previously:
TD5 Defender 110 CSW (230k miles)
300TDi Disco 1 (289k)
4 RR Classics (300-350k each, 2 manual, 2 auto)
110 V8 CSW (220k)
S3 109 hi cap pickup (ex RN)
S2A 88 Safari SW with lpg conversion (bloody lethal)
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