Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
OK. I found two alternative bars to the genuine LR. The first one being the Witter R39, and the other being Tow Trust TL1 (or a removable version TL1HKF).
I spoke to both manufacturers who were very much aware of the LR problems, and while Witter were very useful and helpful, they would not say for sure that their product would solve the problem, although they agreed it would likely be much better.
Tow Trust Director Tom Miller was on the other hand very certain that his bar would resolve the LR problem, and also very helpful on the phone. He sent me photos of a fitted bar, and explained how although his system still uses the crossmember receptor hole, his locking mechanism is a bolt not a sprung pin like LR, and it also not only goes through the hole, but pushes downwards therefore forcing the bar tighter into the hole taking up any slack. It then has very substantial sideways outriggers that look way more sturdy than the LR or Witter bar preventing any forwards/backwards and lateral movement. I will upload the photos that he sent me, although they only show the removable version TL1HKF, which protrudes slightly further than the fixed bar by 45mm, although when removed obviously protrudes less than the fixed TL1. The fixed bar protrudes 145mm from the receptor hole in the crossmember to the flange plate. The removeable bar is then a further 45mm to the flange plate (approximately) but it is important to note that the removable bar does still use a standard flange plate, not a swan neck, and has 4 holes, or 2 height settings.
Both mfrs include the additional bolts and sleeves for the post 2008 models. The Witter has no included ball, but the Tow Trust kit INCLUDES an Al-Ko compatible ball. Both are rated as much as the car can legally pull, despite Witter only stating 3230kg. Witter said this is because this figure is the Gross Train Weight minus the Gross vehicle weight, leaving the maximum the car can tow, however if the car wasnt fully loaded to the gross vehicle weight, then the towing weight can be increased up to 3500kg. Basically they are watching their backs so you don't hang a 3500kg trailer on the back and then fully load the car with the wife and kids and suitcases.
Witter told me that their bar has even less ground clearance than the original LR fixed bar, this being because they say they have been asked by people who tow plant to provide a super low ball height setting. as you will see from the photos I will upload, the Tow Trust bar has excellent clearance, especially with removable TL1HKF bar.
I think I am going to go for the Tow Trust bar, as it looks really meaty, has the highest ground clearance, and the mfr gave me the most confidence that his would solve my problem. Just gotta decide whether to splash out for the smart looking removable one.
As for prices, the best I can find the Witter R39 for is on ebay at £144.27 delivered, but plus extra for ball, and I need an Al-Ko compatible, so another £15 on top.
Despite the list prices shown on Tow Trust Website (Link above) Tom Miller the director offered me the LTL1 for £150 delivered (inc Al-Ko ball) and the TL1HKF removable bar for £193.50 delivered (inc Al-Ko ball). He also said the bars were almost the same excepting the removable part, so if you initially choose the fixed bar, you can buy the upgrade part separately and easily change to removable. You can see the different parts on the fitting instructions (link above).D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
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22nd Jun 2012 5:57 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
These are the pics of the removable Tow Trust bar TL1HKF sent to me by the Tow Trust Director Tom Miller. Note, these are not from my vehicle. The non-removable version TL1 protrudes 45mm less without the release mechanism. I should add that the removable unit IS lockable according to the mfr.
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D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
22nd Jun 2012 6:21 pm
RTW
Member Since: 25 Jan 2009
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 50
At the minute I have both the fixed LR bar and the quick release LR bar, when I know I'll be doing lots of towing I keep the fixed bar on but when going away with the caravan but likely to be off roading I take it off and tow with the quick release so I can remove it to save the plow effect, but having read this thread I recon I'll be having a word with Tow Trust as that looks like the bar for me.
We've just been away, I towed the caravan with our off roader DII and the wife towed a 3500 kg Ifor tilt bed trailer with a LR ninety on it 'a bloody long way' with the quick release LR bar...NEVER again
Will be ringing them, need to check if the Tow Trust removable bar can accept a 1/2" stabiliser plate and check what hieght the ball can be set at.Richard.
If it 'bongs' one more time, I'm gonna drive it off a cliff!
22nd Jun 2012 7:12 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
RTW
Tom Miller (Tow Trust) told me that their bar fixed or removable can take anything that you could normally attach to a flange type bar, including stabilisers, cycle racks and even adjustable slider plates similar to a Dixon/Bate setup.
I'm not sure of the exact heights, but there are 2 height settings on both types, and if you look at the fitting instructions for the TL1 fixed bar, I reckon you may even be able to rotate the flange section 180 degrees to give you 2 higher settings or 2 lower settings. I doubt thats possible with the removable one though.
I have the weekend to decide which one I want, fixed or removable, and I'm ordering mine first thing Monday morning ready for a caravan trip on Thursday.
Another problem with the Witter was that their techy said I shouldn't tow my fully loaded Ifor Williams on the Al-Ko type ball which I need for the caravan, so I'd have to change the flange ball each time I switch between the caravan and trailer. No thanks!! Tow trust assured me that their Al-Ko compatible ball is both compatible with the Al-Ko stabiliser on my van, but also rated at over 3.5t for towing my loaded trailer. Sorted.D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
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22nd Jun 2012 7:21 pm
RTW
Member Since: 25 Jan 2009
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 50
That's interesting, thanks for the info
I was just concerned about adding extra spacers etc as the removable one looks to be sticking out a long way already, but adding a height adjustable set up like the Dixon Bate would be perfect for my needs (5 different trailers needing towing but still need the ability to take the D3 off road without dismantling too much).Richard.
If it 'bongs' one more time, I'm gonna drive it off a cliff!
22nd Jun 2012 7:33 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
Tom Miller was very helpful on the phone and by email. I'm sure he would answer any of your questions if you call him before you buy. You can buy Tow Trust through their dealers, but he was quite happy to sell direct to me.
I know what you mean about the protrusion though. I was a bit worried about how far the removable bar will stick out. If I go for that I'll just have to get used to removing it every time. I must admit I did tend to leave the LR one in if I knew I'd be using it again within a few weeks. At least the fixed one would be nice and tight to the bumper, but always there...D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
22nd Jun 2012 8:00 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
So, I decided to go for the fixed TL1 bar, and I have added some photos taken during installation, for anyone with the same problem. I might add, that there is no rattle or play at all in the crossmember socket, even before I added the side braces, I would say that it would be more than strong enough to tow with just this part without the braces. The locking pin is shamfered which forces the unit tightly into the crossmember, eliminating all play and rattles as with the LR removeable one.
All in all, I'm very pleased with the result, and the difference in towing was unbelievable. I hadn't realised how bad the old one was. Without the rattles, it is smooth, and quiet, and one other point, the height of the ball (compared with the LR removable which was too low) is far more appropriate for both my caravan and my Ifor Williams trailer, meaning that they are both more level and the twin axles are more equally loaded, making the overall towing experience better. Level trailer equals better braking, less sway, and less lifting of the rear of the car. D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
5th Jul 2012 2:06 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
What comes in the box...
The main part that goes into the crossmember. Excellent fitting, and a shafered locking pin that forces the item hard into the socket eliminating play.
Once installed, it is solid and will not move at all, and I believe that this would be strong enough to tow with now, even before adding the additional braces. So much better than the LR fit.
And the finished article:
D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
5th Jul 2012 2:20 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
By the way, fitting took about a half hour.D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
5th Jul 2012 2:23 pm
Russell
Member Since: 24 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564
redjelly having looked at the photos that looks a big strong bit of kit. However that also looks like a very very big plough should you go off roading, it looks to hang down a very long way and looks to stick out further than the LR one, is that right or just the photos.MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
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5th Jul 2012 2:31 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
It is a very strong bit of kit, but it doesnt hang down any further than the LR fixed bar kit. in fact the clearance is better, and does not go as close to the road as the LR one by a couple of inches. I have compared them side by side. Also, as mentioned earlier, the Witter equivalent hangs even LOWER than the LR, so this is the lesser of the three evils.
I don't go off road as much as I used to, as I used to have a farm, where this baby was very much at home, but since selling my farm the off roading isn't such an issue for me. But I agree that I would rather it wasn't there at all, and hence all this time I have used the removable LR one which I loved, until it failed along with the many others. It was either this, or a new crossmember etc as others have done, which was out of the question for me.
This was a very quick £150 fix for my towing problem. If it really came to it, I could remove it in less than 20 mins with 3 bolts. Alternatively, you could spend the extra £50 and get the removable version from Tow Trust.D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
5th Jul 2012 2:47 pm
B16 KJR
Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005
It certainly looks a hefty piece of kit. I take it that to fit it you push the fitting into the crossmember socket as normal then tighten the bolt which pushes the pin into the hole and locks it tight ? Also I notice you are using an ALKO hitch but I can't see if you have fitted a spacer between the drop plate and the towball, if not can the hitch head move from side to side without hitting the drop plate ? Also what are the heights from ground to towball centre for the 2 height settings ?
5th Jul 2012 3:01 pm
redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
Yes, the fitting goes into the crossmember and then you actually loosen the retaining screw which releases the sprung pin into the hole. I was a bit sceptical about this bit as the LR one sprung, and it's crap, with people complaining about their hitches falling off etc, but you can ensure it is located properly, and then you replace a new larger diameter bolt which pushes the pin fully through the hole, if it hasn't already sprung in there on it's own, and as aforementioned, it is shamfered, so the more it goes in, the more it pushes the unit into place.
I am using an Al-Ko (equivalent) ball, which incidentally comes with the kit! So this is purposefully longer and taller to create enough articulation for the Alko hitch. With this special ball, you don't need a spacer, but it does make it look like it sticks out a bit more. I am not using a spacer, and there isn't one in the kit. As you can see from the picture with the van hooked on, there's plenty of articulation space because of the longer neck.
As for heights, I don't have any to hand, but i measured the height of the old LR removable ball, and then the new one, and it was approx 25mm higher with the ball in the lower holes.D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
5th Jul 2012 3:49 pm
B16 KJR
Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005
I see, the first bolt is only to hold the sprung pin back, so you can push the fitting into place then it is removed to allow the pin to locate in the hole, then a larger bolt is fitted which pushes the tapered pin in further and will also prevent it moving back.
The height of my towball now, is 395mm from ground to centre, just wondered if you could measure yours and then the distance from the bottom bolt hole centre, to the top bolt hole centre, that way I can get both heights.
Thats interesting about the spacer not being fitted. The first ALKO hitch I fitted, I did not put a spacer in and despite having the correct ALKO towball, I destroyed the hitch because it hit the drop plate everytime I went around a corner, a very costly mistake
Do you have the contact details for this Tom Miller and is he happy to supply for the £150 delivered ?
5th Jul 2012 4:37 pm
RTW
Member Since: 25 Jan 2009
Location: West Yorks
Posts: 50
That looks pretty good
Some tow ball height measurements would be great, as when I rang them last week they couldn't give me any heights at all...
Will probably end up with this fixed set up, and the height adjustable attachment on it, but again, they couldn't give me accurate measurements of the height adjuster accessory...
There does look like there is scope to remove the towball mount bit and bolt in a block of steel, like this -
http://www.arbil4x4.co.uk/Catalogue/Produc...0000000000
Obviously, that Warn part probably won't fit, but you get the idea Richard.
If it 'bongs' one more time, I'm gonna drive it off a cliff!
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