Member Since: 15 Jan 2016
Location: GL
Posts: 10677
Very nice of them to take the time to make a video.
Shame they didn't show you how to get the engine into TDC to start with.
and turning over at the end.
You should also check the tensioner alignment after turning over
If you use their tool, you could always slip the new belt behind the tool (if you remember) at the start to avoid having to remove the tool half way thru.
6th May 2017 12:02 pm
Timboelise
Member Since: 18 Dec 2016
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 3
This is a great thread and I’d like to thank everyone that has contributed to it. I did my D4 this weekend and found the photo’s and write up from Disco-Mikey invaluable. It is a long job as there’s lot’s of “jewellery” on the front of the engine that needs to be cleared out the way, but take your time, read all the advice in this thread, get the right tools and it’s not that bad.
Having read all 18 pages of this thread before I started, I did spot that some of the comments written were, I suspect, from people with experience of cam belt changes on more traditional fixed (keyed) pulleys rather than the adjustable ones found on the TDV6 - let me clarify. All engines I’ve done cam belt changes on before have toothed wheels on the crankshaft and camshafts that are keyed onto the shaft with no possibility of adjustment - on these type of engines any error of the timing of the new belt has to be a complete tooth (or multiple teeth), on these types of engines many of the comments about counting teeth, using paint marks and similar are perfectly valid. The TDV6 is different - the crank pulley is not keyed, when they make the engine the crank pulley is fitted and tightened up in whatever position it happens to be in, to compensate for this the cam pulleys are infinitely adjustable with slotted holes to allow adjustments to be made. To enable the engine to be acurately timed they have locking indents in the flywheel and the cams to hold everything in perfect position, then the belt is fitted and tensioned and finally the bolts in the slotted cam pulleys are tightened up.
So what does this all mean when you replace the cam belt and do you or do you not need to take the starter off to retime everything. Well the answer is - it depends!!! If you assume that the timing was correct when the engine was built (and hopefully it is), then there is no harm in starting the project on the basis that you won’t remove the starter - however if you do then I totally agree with GraemeS and you should not under any circumstances undo the bolts on the camshafts or you will lose that factory setting. As long as you don’t undo the camshaft bolts then you can treat the job as a more traditional fixed (keyed) engine - use paint blobs on the crank and pins in the cams and don’t remove the starter. When you’ve finished you will have a new belt and the timing will be back to exactly as it was before you started. Alternatively you may decide from the start that you will be removing the starter and locking the crank in which case you should follow the correct procedure of loosening the cam bolts, rotating the cam wheels clockwise (having inserted the pins!!) and firing the belt in the same way as the factory did and as many in this thread advocate.
I opted for NOT removing the starter - but I finished the job by removing the starter!!!! Why?? Well when I got to the stage of inserting the camshaft pins only one would fit at a time - whichever pin I fitted first, the second pin would fit!! Something was clearly not quite right - was it belt stretch, was it a slight error when the engine was built? There was no way to tell so at this point I reverted to the starter out process to make sure everything timed back to factory settings. I would recommend that - if in any doubt about the existing timing - remove the starter and lock the crank.
Finally - starter removal on a D4? Well I can only assume the D4 arrangement has been modified to make things a little easier than the horror stories I have read about D3 starter removal. When I took the two bolts out from the rear I had to catch the starter motor as fell out the car!! It took me no more than 30 minutes including removing the under tray and battery cable. With hindsight if I had known how easy it was going to be then I would have probably started the job as a starter removal in the first instance.
8th May 2017 5:35 pm
BrettKaz
Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209
Just want to pick-up on something in Timboelise's excellent contribution. That his timing was out when he first touched it. Mine keeps going out for some reason ... Here are the chain of events.
Mechanic 1 - belt changed with 3 pins (I am 99% confident they used the crank pin because they changed the oil pump).
Mechanic 2 - +2k miles - oil pump seal not fitted correctly - replace seal - reports that timing is out by 1/2 a pin - uses 3 pins to retime
Mechanic 3 - +1k miles engine blows - reports that engine timing is out (while in this workshop saw another come in - same thing timing out about 1/2 pin)
Holy smoke - what's going on? Is it user error or is the torque and vibration of the cams/ vacuum pump causing the cam pulleys (held tight with three bolts) to rotate within the 'fitting play' of 20 odd degrees. If you think that's Then check this next explanation.
I phoned mechanic 1 - I had in my mind not to lose my temper - we had a few things to discuss and when I asked him about why the timing was out he said they often see cars that have a faulty injector lose their timing. I wanted to jump down the phone and punch his lights out for spinning that Because I didn't want to upset myself didn't ask him why and moved onto the next topic which was why I had a faulty injector after they had done their job and not bled the coolant properly causing overheating and injector damage. I assume he mean't that if you are getting pinging then this force/vibration gets sent thru the cam back to the pulley wheel I guess exceeding the hydraulic dampeners tolerance. Gotta be
Then I saw a thread where a guy looked to have a faulty injector and one banks offset values where well off and Mikey though timing might be out. That thread yet to be fully diagnosed. Hmmm. Be interesting to hear from some of the guys who do these changes regularly what % of vehicles have pre-existing timing errors and what cylinder bank they were on - at least one of mine were in bank A - the failed injector was cylinder 3/ bank A.
Finally what if some mechanics have been using 3 pins and not slackening off the pulleys and missing a tooth. In the 2 pin approach this would lead to the crank rotating as the tension equalises in the Vee and a red flag to start again. If you did the same thing with the crank locked down in the 3 pin approach you wouldn't know unless you had a good look/feel around. That would lead to extra stress on the tensioner side - would that be enough to cause the failures seen soon after a belt change and a weak attachment point (oil pump) btw not saying this was the cause possibly just a premature cause. Would it cause the timing to move over time?
All the above seems pretty weak to me but I can't see the issue being just down to wear ... Those belts are pretty tough and in my case only travelled a couple of thousand miles.
23rd May 2017 9:52 pm
Tripe
Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 285
I am planning to do my belts in the next few weeks
I'm not a tradesman, but I'm mechanically minded and have done everything from replacing egr valves to air bag replacement
The one thing that doesn't make sense is the low torque setting on the tensioner idler, I'm wondering if these don't get enough tension and they start to move and the belt eventually slips, which throws everything out.
If the torque wrench is not correct at these lower readings, It may be under tightening these bolts.
24th May 2017 10:24 pm
Pete K
Member Since: 15 Jan 2016
Location: GL
Posts: 10677
The tensioners are a bit of a nightmare on these.
There is a square mark (which I paint) which you need to align with a square hole.
After rotating the crank around to check the alignment I found the tension was incorrect, and needed to have another go at the tensioner then rotate the engine again to ensure the painted mark was still in rough alignment with the cutout
25th May 2017 11:22 am
Wurley
Member Since: 23 Jun 2017
Location: Cambs
Posts: 1
gtrhaggart wrote:
Done a few belts and can do in under 3 hours with a coffee break. A bit fiddly but can do rear belt without removing wiring and water pipe. Does tend to hurt arms though.
Good write up though should save a few people some cash. Anyone in cambs area can borrow my timing pin set foc.
Gav
I know this is an extremely cheeky first post - but was hoping your offer of lending out your locking pin set was still available . . . I'm looking at replacing the belts on my XF. Will happily leave a cash deposit on the kit if you're unsure I live in St Neots if that's not too far from you fella ? ? ?
I have done a few hundred belts and oil pump changes and I have seen all sorts of markings on the two cambelt pulleys when the front belt has been changed. When I have tried to insert my pins in all these with markings on the pulleys the pins have been difficult to insert, and could only be inserted when all pins in the correct holes.
The belt can be put on wrong if the correct sequence is not done when it comes to threading the belt on and making sure that all the slack is moved in an anit-clockwise direction towards the belt tensioner.
It is possible to be a tooth out if its not done the correct way.
Flack
23rd Jun 2017 3:56 pm
DerrekL
Member Since: 01 Aug 2016
Location: Bathgate
Posts: 34
I cannot view DM's pictures at the start of this post , but can view other pics throughout other sections of this post. Is there a reason of this?
25th Jul 2017 1:29 pm
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 73081
Coz Photobucket have started charging stupid money for hosting.
25th Jul 2017 1:39 pm
DerrekL
Member Since: 01 Aug 2016
Location: Bathgate
Posts: 34
Cheers DSL.
I know what the answer is gonna be DM (no swearing now ) but any chance you could upload the pics to this site.
25th Jul 2017 1:45 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20841
Once I get through this lot. And the rest of the weeks work. And next weeks My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 23 Jun 2006
Location: W.London.
Posts: 2344
Don't complain D_M ......... You'll never be short of work, specialising in Land Rovers D3 owned from new, P017 brake recall, BAS FBHIC, new FBH, LR013487 oil pump, new water pump. RRS front lower suspension arms. New suspension compressor/ relay. New Denso alternator. CuNifer rear brake pipes. New GKN rear propshaft. New HPFP belt & tensioner. New A/C Condenser.NO WARRANTY for many many years.
25th Jul 2017 7:55 pm
DerrekL
Member Since: 01 Aug 2016
Location: Bathgate
Posts: 34
Fair point DM that kinda puts things into perspective
26th Jul 2017 7:34 am
Mo
Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Thurrock
Posts: 174
You can DIY loads of stuff on LR if you follow meticulously put together' how to' instructions like this one but in my own opinion, Cam-belt/timing belt change should strictly be left to professionals.
Mo
26th Jul 2017 8:17 am
Tripe
Member Since: 28 Jun 2015
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 285
Finally replaced my timing belt, I had the full intention of removing the starter, pinning the fly wheel and replacing the oil pump.
I called around a few independent LR garages and none of them have ever seen a failed oil pump tensioner mount, interestingly they have had to fix a few botched DIY oil pump and timing belt replacements!!!!
After looking at what is required to remove the starter motor I decided to only replace the timing belts, tensioners and auxiliary belt and not worry about pinning the flywheel and removing the oil pump.
I stripped everything that is required to access the timing belt and turned the crank until I could insert the two Cam Shaft timing pins, then I made up a small piece of flat metal bar to pin the Crank, locking it off to the alternator bracket. Before I locked the crank, I positioned the new timing belt behind the bar.
I also used a paint pen to mark the crank position.
I cut the old timing belt off and installed the new belt, idlers and tensioners and then tensioned everything, rotated the crank two full turns and reinserted timing pins and reattached the small piece of flat bar, everything aligned spot on.
I checked the paint marks, (I had one mark on the block, one mark on the pulley and a third mark on top of the radiator which I used to line the crank and block marks up) these marks aligned perfectly.
The tensioner alignment mark had moved so I undid the holding bolt and re-tensioned again and did a further two crank rotations and re inserted the timing pins and checked the tensioner again and it stayed in the correct position. I again checked the paint lines and everything was perfectly aligned. After another lot of tension checks I re assembled everything and started the engine and everything worked as normal.
After job debrief:
- I'm no mechanic, but this job was not that difficult thanks to all the comments provided on this website
- If you are only doing the timing belt, I reckon there is zero problem in using the paintline method for positioning the crank, I used the timing pins and my little bar to lock everything off twice and the paintlines on the crank and block aligned perfectly on both occasions
- If I ever did this again, I would just use paint lines. Turning the crank two times gives you confidence that nothing is hitting.
- My little bar to lock off the crank, cost $0.00 and only took 15 minutes to manufacturer
-The biggest issue I had was two little electrical cable ties that sat about 4" below the top on the LHS and RHS of the timing belt plastic casing , I couldn't get the cover off, until I noticed the case was attached to these two cables, they were a pain in the to cut (and reattach at the end of the job)
Last edited by Tripe on 17th Aug 2017 1:01 am. Edited 1 time in total
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
, but can view other pics throughout other sections of this post. Is there a reason of this? 
) but any chance you could upload the pics to this site. 
