Member Since: 17 Aug 2009
Location: Lancashire, Chorley ..ish
Posts: 204
What values do you have for 'Glow Plug' and 'Flame Detector'?
This shows a cold heater at startup.
The flame detector resistance is created from the glow plug as they are the same thing.
The lower the resistance the harder the glow plug is having to work to heat up.
If the glow plug can't be heated sufficently then when the diesel is added it won't ignite.
After about 30seonds of glow plug activity, the FBH diesel fuel pump is run, flooding the chamber.
This should ignite the diesel fuel. The glow pug is turned off and the resistance of it is monitored.
Look at the flame detector resistance. This is telling the FBH that there is a flame. This takes about 1minute from initial startup.
Also look at the fuel pump frequency- if the fuel pump is working flat out it can't deliver enough fuel to maintain the burn.
Have a look at the Webasto log that can sometime tell you more.
If the CAN is turning the FBH off before it has time to start (ie no errors in the fbh memory) then there could be some error/fault codes within the vehicle.
I have seen faults in the AirBag controller and the ABS cause similar issues.
I have tried to monitor the medium CAN to get a better idear of what can stop the FBH as well as the ATCM, but it is slow going as there is alot if data whizzing about.
Ian..so what can I fiddle with today that ain't broken ...?
14th Feb 2011 2:48 pm
Steve H
Member Since: 14 Apr 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 98
IanNP wrote:
What values do you have for 'Glow Plug' and 'Flame Detector'?
This shows a cold heater at startup.
The flame detector resistance is created from the glow plug as they are the same thing.
The lower the resistance the harder the glow plug is having to work to heat up.
If the glow plug can't be heated sufficently then when the diesel is added it won't ignite.
After about 30seonds of glow plug activity, the FBH diesel fuel pump is run, flooding the chamber.
This should ignite the diesel fuel. The glow pug is turned off and the resistance of it is monitored.
Look at the flame detector resistance. This is telling the FBH that there is a flame. This takes about 1minute from initial startup.
Also look at the fuel pump frequency- if the fuel pump is working flat out it can't deliver enough fuel to maintain the burn.
Have a look at the Webasto log that can sometime tell you more.
If the CAN is turning the FBH off before it has time to start (ie no errors in the fbh memory) then there could be some error/fault codes within the vehicle.
I have seen faults in the AirBag controller and the ABS cause similar issues.
I have tried to monitor the medium CAN to get a better idear of what can stop the FBH as well as the ATCM, but it is slow going as there is alot if data whizzing about.
Ian
I'll have a look at the protocol log files I took when I last tried it on CANBUS. I hadn't thought about possible faults in the car fault log affecting messages on the bus. I can't read them on the PC I'm on at the moment. I've exported them into Excel so I'll get the values for the pump and flame detector.D4 SDV6 XS Orkney Grey
14th Feb 2011 9:49 pm
elpiloto
Member Since: 19 May 2010
Location: Dubai
Posts: 39
10 mins with 0c outside is what I get, so happy days!
15th Feb 2011 12:25 am
Steve H
Member Since: 14 Apr 2008
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 98
IanNP wrote:
What values do you have for 'Glow Plug' and 'Flame Detector'?
This shows a cold heater at startup.
The flame detector resistance is created from the glow plug as they are the same thing.
The lower the resistance the harder the glow plug is having to work to heat up.
If the glow plug can't be heated sufficently then when the diesel is added it won't ignite.
After about 30seonds of glow plug activity, the FBH diesel fuel pump is run, flooding the chamber.
This should ignite the diesel fuel. The glow pug is turned off and the resistance of it is monitored.
Look at the flame detector resistance. This is telling the FBH that there is a flame. This takes about 1minute from initial startup.
Also look at the fuel pump frequency- if the fuel pump is working flat out it can't deliver enough fuel to maintain the burn.
Have a look at the Webasto log that can sometime tell you more.
If the CAN is turning the FBH off before it has time to start (ie no errors in the fbh memory) then there could be some error/fault codes within the vehicle.
I have seen faults in the AirBag controller and the ABS cause similar issues.
I have tried to monitor the medium CAN to get a better idear of what can stop the FBH as well as the ATCM, but it is slow going as there is alot if data whizzing about.
Ian
Each time it fails the sequence seems to be the same whether its in parking heat or supplementary heat mode.
The fuel pumps starts up at around 5.15hz with the flame detector at around 0.914. After between 10 and 20 seconds the pump shuts down having dropped to 2.6 to 2.8 hz and flame detector at around 0.88. It looks as though the pumps isn't running hard enough as on a good run up it never drops below 5hz. I take it the pump is controlled by the heater control board and that it is the output of that board that is monitored rather than the pump itself. If thats the case it looks as though the control board isn't calling for the pump to run properly.
I have a number of logs recorded in xls format.D4 SDV6 XS Orkney Grey
15th Feb 2011 8:27 pm
yorkie1
Member Since: 27 Dec 2010
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 5
Hi
Does anybody just use the oval timer to control the heater?
What I mean is if the timer or fob is used with the CAN bus disconnected, then it would be possible to operate the unit at any temperature and not be limited to when it is below 5degC.
I think there would be a lot of benefit in using it much more - say 12deg or below to speed the warm up time.
Any thoughts?Yorkie
18th Feb 2011 5:23 pm
IanNP
Member Since: 17 Aug 2009
Location: Lancashire, Chorley ..ish
Posts: 204
You can use the oval timer to activate the FBH when ever you choose.
You can have it 'on demand' or programme on/off times - just like your heating at home.
But, if you are having issues with the FBH it won't resolve it though.
If you seach the forum there are lots of items on this mod.
Ian..so what can I fiddle with today that ain't broken ...?
18th Feb 2011 7:41 pm
yorkie1
Member Since: 27 Dec 2010
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 5
Thanks Ian
With the CAN connected isn't there conflict between the 2 systems?
I thought that if a burn is requested by the timer, the CAN could overide it and switch it off if the conditions re temperature etc are not met.Yorkie
18th Feb 2011 8:31 pm
IanNP
Member Since: 17 Aug 2009
Location: Lancashire, Chorley ..ish
Posts: 204
If the ignition is switched off the FBH will shut down via the CAN, so can the Crash sensor etc etc...so what can I fiddle with today that ain't broken ...?
18th Feb 2011 8:45 pm
yorkie1
Member Since: 27 Dec 2010
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 5
Sorry to be a pain but I obviously haven't explained very well what I wanted to ask.
If you start up from cold - say outside temp 10deg and fire the heater from the timer, won't the CAN tell it to shut down because the temperature is too high?Yorkie
18th Feb 2011 9:19 pm
IanNP
Member Since: 17 Aug 2009
Location: Lancashire, Chorley ..ish
Posts: 204
OK.
The aim of the FBH is to get the engine coolant to around 86deg then maintain it there.
The Guys at Land Rover decided that when the external temp is 5deg or below the FBH is required to keep the engine coolant at normal operating temp - and the cabin heater will stilll keep the ocupants warm.
The cooling system is very efficent and the engine goes cool if it isn't working hard when the external temp is 5deg or below.
If you fit a telestart or an oval timer these control the FBH as well as the vehicle systems (via the CAN).
The FBH only does what it is told to do by an external controller. Once it is told to 'switch on' it goes through a set routine to bring the vehicle coolant to a preset temp as quickly as possible and keep it there.
The CAN only switches the FBH on when the external temp sensor says it is 5deg or below. Then switches it off when the eternal temp is 5.5deg or above, or engine is turned off etc etc.
The telestart and oval timer will switch on the FBH (regardless of the external temp) and keep it on for a set length of time bringing the coolant to 86deg, as they arn't bothered about the external temp just the coolant temp.
Now, if the oval timer turns on the FBH, then the external temp drops below 5deg, invoking a CAN FBH switch on, when the engine is turned off the FBH will go off.
As each controller is identified individually by the FBH some have priority over others, eg, intelelstart is cancelled by CAN, but I havn't had the time nor need to work out where the oval timer features in this. I would have thought that the FBH will be shut down by the CAN regardless of what turns it on when the ignition is turned off.
It would be easy enough to work out - just time consuming !
Best to ask someone who has fitted one...so what can I fiddle with today that ain't broken ...?
19th Feb 2011 11:23 am
yorkie1
Member Since: 27 Dec 2010
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 5
Many thanks Ian
As always a great explanation.
I didn't realise that the FBH would identiify the instructions as being sent from different sources.
My heater isn't working - it has been diagnosed on IDS and after clearing non firing faults it runs through the sequence ok. However, IDS does not allow the unit to do a prolonged burn - it shuts the unit down immediately after the glow plug ignites the fuel. This has been done twice but has not sorted the problem so I plan to follow your excellent instructions to enable me to use the Webasto diagnostics and if it will fire to let it run for some time to clear out any crud that might be lurking in there. If this works then I will fit an oval timer to give me more control.
Thanks againYorkie
19th Feb 2011 12:06 pm
MichiganMinx
Member Since: 04 Mar 2011
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 4
Is there anyone near sheffield who has resolved this, has the kit and I might be able to visit to help me with the FBH?
Thanks
R
4th Mar 2011 11:56 pm
IanNP
Member Since: 17 Aug 2009
Location: Lancashire, Chorley ..ish
Posts: 204
MichiganMinx wrote:
Is there anyone near sheffield who has resolved this, has the kit and I might be able to visit to help me with the FBH?
Thanks
R
Have a chat with Wiggs, he goes to most places.!..so what can I fiddle with today that ain't broken ...?
You can use the oval timer to activate the FBH when ever you choose.
You can have it 'on demand' or programme on/off times - just like your heating at home.
Ian
You can use the oval timer to activate the FBH as long as the car is asleep..... thats important....
Like you say there is loads on the forum, just had to comment
For diagnostic purposes, you can buy the diagnostic tool for £30 from www.ebay.de
I did and its saved me several trips to the stealer.....
Member Since: 03 Feb 2011
Location: skien
Posts: 138
Sammo her, recently purchased Disco3 but Webasto don't work. Dealer tried resetting which resulted in lots of smoke for a short period of time but no can do since.
Read about Faultmate-FCR possibly could get it going again, is this true? Heard that only MSV-2 can force the FBH to start?www.skienklinikk.no
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