Member Since: 21 Oct 2016
Location: kent
Posts: 14129
Also happened to come across this , starts talking about the crank around the 21.17
8th Mar 2023 5:03 am
gstuart
Member Since: 21 Oct 2016
Location: kent
Posts: 14129
Just copied the transcript from the above video to make life easier
Cars with 2.7 HD diesel engine are highly not recommended for purchase. Especially it is necessary to bypass the Land Rover TDV6 SUVs.
The statistics on breakdowns are very sad, things are going much better on Peugeot, Citroën and Jaguar cars.
But on French cars with 2.7 HDI, total destruction of the crankshaft happens. What is the reason?
The manufacturer does not comment on this problem in an way and does not provide any solution.
But the servicemen and owners seem to have found the truth. The point is in the incorrectly recommended oil.
First of all, British manufacturers have recommended the use of ACEA A5 / B5 oils.
In order not to delve into the classification of motor oils, let's say that these are low-viscosity oils.
Usually it is 5W-30, which have extremely low lubricating properties for friction pairs, are distinguished by less resistance to moving engine parts.
In short, these oils are engineered to reduce internal friction losses and save fuel.
ACEA A5 / B5 oils have low high-temperature viscosity parameters.
I will explain in simple words:the higher the oil temperature and the higher the speed of movement of the components of the friction pairs, the easier the protective film from the friction pairs is scraped off.
In addition, the high-temperature viscosity of such oils is greatly reduced already with a run of 5000 kilometers.
Thus, the friction couples remain practically unprotected.
Engines for which ACE A5 / B5 oils are recommended must be designed for them.
Gaps in friction pairs should be minimal. Cooling oil should be high.
Only then does the low-viscosity oil feel good.
The diesel 6 with a volume of 2.7 HDI liters was designed when the ACEA A5 / B5 class of oils did not exist.
After two years of production of this engine, manufacturers transferred it to this class of low-viscosity oils.
Older instructions sav that the oil that is provided for this engine must be 5W-40 with
ACE C3 tolerance and a safe HTHS of 3.5 Pascals per second.
And even now, the difference is visible in the engine oil selection catalog.
For the 2.7 HDI engine for French cars, 5W-40 or 10W-40 oil of the old class ACEA B3 is recommended
Or the more modern ACE C3 class with a safe HTHS of 3.5 Pascals per second.
But Jaguar and Land Rover recommend a low viscosity 5W-30 oil for the 2.7 HDI engine.
The use of low-viscosity oil for such motors is unacceptable.
If the hone mesh on the surface of the cylinders in British cars holds the wrong oil well, then the liners wear out by the time of 150,000 kilometers.
What happened or is happening when low-viscosity oil was poured or poured into the engine.
When the engine is new, it is not in danger until about 150,000 kilometers.
But with age, such factors as clogged radiators, clogged heat exchanger, oil flowing heat exchanger are added.
Also, in friction pairs, gaps increase and then a film of low-viscosity oil is scraped off and simply disappears.
Dry friction occurs, the liners are scratched and welded onto the crankshaft journals.
There is also a version of a constructive engineering miscalculation, allegedly the crankshaft is incorrectly designed.
But the version about the wrongly recommended oil still seems more believable.
Let's evaluate the condition of this engine. The crankshaft shows no wear and no scratches.
The main and connecting rod bearings look very good.
There is a small oil on the top land of the pistons. It seems that it was more viscous oil that was poured into this engine.
Top main bearings look great too. There are oil nozzles in the cylinder block.
Disassembly is complete. Today's disassembly lasted 7 hours.
During these 7 hours we tried to talk about all the shortcomings and weak points of this motor.
8th Mar 2023 5:48 am
Marshall8hp
Member Since: 05 Dec 2022
Location: Townsville
Posts: 34
It is interesting. My local indi Landie mechanic, who has hundreds of client with D3/D4 tells me that in their experience the 2.7 TDV6 (once the oil pump is replaced) is (to quote him) bomb proof. They never have issues. Whereas the 3.0 SDV6 is a nightmare for its owners.
8th Mar 2023 7:48 am
NC500
Member Since: 18 Sep 2017
Location: On the NC500
Posts: 541
My D4 has 130k and runs 5wdumbass (!) which is changed every 6k. I also add Liqui Moly Ceratec at each change. I freely admit that when I read on here about folk changing oil so regularly I scoffed. Then I began sending oil away for analysis and was shocked to find oil dilution at 8%+ when run to LR service intervals. After much investigation and spending hundreds of pound on oil analysis after every change, I have settled on an oil and filter change at 6k as this keeps fuel dilution <2%.
A thin oil (5w30) plus high fuel dilution is asking for trouble. The Ceratec adds an additional barrier against dry starts.
BTW I also fitted a remote FBH start and NEVER do a cold start below 7c, the car always gets a pre heat.
I may of course end up eating my own words in time but as the vehicle is used extensively to provide private tours for paying guests I simply cannot afford any mishaps as the car is my livelihood.
Member Since: 16 Jan 2020
Location: East/West Sussex Coast Borders
Posts: 1200
Whilst the crank on this engine could have had more meat on it, the general concensus is that the failures are predominantly caused by oil dilution.
LRs programming allows extra fuel for DPF re-generation at almost any time, irrespective of the engines current operational state.
My VW Touareg also has a 3.0 V6 Tdi engine, it has sensible programming, and oil changes at up to 20,000 miles or two years, without major catasrophic failures.
The LR engine failures would therefore appear to be majoritially caused by its management software.
The current problems with thefts of LRs products also raises the question of competent people designing and signing off these electronic systems.
I solved the constant worry of, will my D4 Commercial let me down whilst earning my living/will it still be where I left it, by getting rid of it.
Now I don't need a back up to this vehicle, my RRS will also soon go, and, I would never ever consider an LR product again, their dealer attitude and inept design flaws are a disgrace. Yes they might sell thousands of these, and yes they will do what no other car can, but in truth, how many are bought to do what many others do, without these issues and costs. We don't all need to drive vertically up and down mountains.
Whilst no engine issues with the TDV8, the fact that it has been impossible to 'turn off' the keyless system on my RRS, is a factor in me wanting shot of it, yet another example of software programming.
I wish I had bought a Touareg sooner, I know I'd be a lot richer, and possibly less cynical.
However, this forum is about the best there is, so it wasn't a total waste of time and money.
Dave2011 Discovery 4 Commercial SDV6 (Gone)
2010 RRS TDV8 (Gone)
1980 OBLIC 4.0ltr Range Rover (went a long time ago)
8th Mar 2023 9:34 am
NC500
Member Since: 18 Sep 2017
Location: On the NC500
Posts: 541
Read up what Castrol have to say on fuel dilution. It’s very relevant to SDV6 engines.
Member Since: 18 Sep 2017
Location: On the NC500
Posts: 541
This is the key part of this very interesting article.
“ This is a fundamental aspect of lubrication that lies at the root of wear prevention. As noted above, diesel fuel introduced into the oil causes a reduction in oil viscosity. If the viscosity falls too far or if the load increases enough, then contact between the parts will occur and wear is the result. A long-term condition of fuel dilution can lead to premature failure of the engine bearings, as well as aggressive wear of high-pressure points such as the valve train and piston rings / cylinder walls. Although a main concern involves long-term damage, if the fuel dilution is severe enough, catastrophic failure can occur over a short period of time.”
8th Mar 2023 11:01 am
Pete K
Member Since: 15 Jan 2016
Location: GL
Posts: 10676
Most of the D3s didn’t have DPFs though, thus extra fuel isn’t injected.
9th Mar 2023 9:44 am
Paul from Freel2.com
Member Since: 04 Dec 2012
Location: Ghent
Posts: 40
an excerpt from this article:
Diesel fuel dilution of the engine oil occurs due to internal leakage of the fuel injection system. Causes vary with different engines, but can be related to sealing ring failure, loose connections, faulty fuel injectors, or even the result of extended periods of idling. Regardless of how the fuel enters the engine oil, the question is at what level is it sufficient to cause harm to the engine?
So the dilution is not only restricted to engines with DPF.
9th Mar 2023 11:10 am
NC500
Member Since: 18 Sep 2017
Location: On the NC500
Posts: 541
Well said Paul!! I am amazed at how few people appreciate that leak or blow by can happen. Just because you don’t have a DPF don’t think you are immune from fuel dilution.
9th Mar 2023 11:25 am
480GT
Member Since: 18 Apr 2022
Location: Oxford
Posts: 43
Sounds like yet another reason to keep the interval between oil changes as low as reasonably possible, particularly if fuel dilution is unavoidable.D3 2005 HSE
GAP IID
9th Mar 2023 11:52 am
HairyFool
Member Since: 04 Jan 2023
Location: North Essex
Posts: 676
The primary use of my D3 is as a tug so the expected annual mileage is going to be very low. Fuel dilution is not going to be a major issue, of much greater significance will be ageing of the oil.
Oil manufacturers give a shelf life for oil of around 5 years or more but that is in the bottle unopened. Take it out of the bottle, subject it to changing atmosphere, heat cycles and mechanical agitation is going to reduce that considerably, annual changes should be the default.A visitor from the dark side, my other vehicle is an is still an EV. Strictly speaking its SWMBO.
9th Mar 2023 5:03 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20841
Well, it already is
12 months or 15/16k miles, whatever comes first
I change mine annually, as I'm doing very little mileage these days, but every 10k when I was doing more miles My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 26 Jan 2012
Location: Rybnik
Posts: 152
For all, who believe that only 5W-30 A5/B5 oils are best for TDV6... Below you will find excerpt from Ford F-150 3.0L V6 Diesel(yes, its same 3.0 TDV6 as in D4!) workshop manual And pay particular attention for FORD recommendations regarding bio-diesel fuels, which are everywhere.... Referred API СK-4 most important parameter - HT/HS >3.5. Who can find A5/B5 oil with similar HTHS?? Discovery3 TDV8 HSE
9th Mar 2023 6:28 pm
AdamB
Member Since: 18 Jan 2023
Location: Thurrock
Posts: 139
I went with this, can't find the hths spec you refer to but it is full saps which I believe the original spec called for.
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And pay particular attention for FORD recommendations regarding bio-diesel fuels, which are everywhere.... Referred API СK-4 most important parameter - HT/HS >3.5. Who can find A5/B5 oil with similar HTHS?? 
