Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
Can I have the email address of the VOSA chap, as I tow commercially with my Disco
Cheers
Sean
6th Dec 2011 7:47 am
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
as the more observant of you would have gathered, the replies from VOSA and DofT seem to be at odds with one another regards what is or is not likely to be effected by the need for a Goods Operators Licence, so a few weeks ago I emailed each representative with the replies I had recieved from each one of em and waited for the touch paper to be lit
Yesterday I recieved the definitive reply via VOSA from DoT (no doubt after a series of meetings with DofT) as to advice given more generally and some helpful examples to best illastrate :
Matthew,
I now attach definitive advice on small trailers and operator licensing.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Regards
Steve Blackmore
THE ATTACHMENT IS AS FOLLOWS:
Changes to operator licensing rules for vehicles under 3.5 tonnes towing small trailers
The rules are only changing for users of vehicles working for Hire or Reward. Note: the following does not apply to dual purpose vehicles when towing trailers (see below*).
From 4 December 2011, if you are using a vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Weight of less than 3,500kg (3.5 tonnes) and are towing a small trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020kg the following will apply in respect of the requirement to obtain a Standard Operators Licence:
• You will be exempt from operator licensing unless you are operating for hire or reward (see description below). This is referred to as operating on your own account.
• You will require a Standard Goods Vehicle Operators Licence where you are carrying other people’s goods for hire or reward (e.g. working as a courier, removal firm or other freight transport business) when the vehicle and trailer combination exceeds 3500kgs (3.5 tonnes) Maximum Authorised Mass. The reason is that from the 4 December the weight calculation must include any trailer attached (irrespective of the trailer’s weight).
For those operating such vehicles towing heavier trailers (than 1020kg unladen weight) or goods vehicles with Maximum Authorised Mass greater than 3500kgs the scope of requirements for needing an operator’s licence remain as before the 4th December 2011.
* “Dual purpose†vehicles
Under Schedule 3 (2) of the goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995 "a dual purpose vehicle and any trailer drawn by it" is identified as exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing.
The dual purpose category generally includes cars, estates, pickups (with a second row of seats (crew cab) only), and domestic 4x4 vehicles such as Land Rovers, Jeeps, and other similar vehicles below 2040kgs unladen weight.
What is not Hire or Reward
You are NOT usually operating for Hire or Reward when you carry goods you own or goods you have used or will use in the course of your business.
Operating for Hire or Reward - Next Steps
If you are operating for hire or reward, you will need to apply for a goods vehicle operator’s licence. The forms required can be obtained from:
If you have further queries you should contact:
VOSA enquiries: E-mail: [email protected]
National Number: 0300 123 9000 (Monday to Friday - 7.30am until 6.00pm)
A guide explaining the requirements of operator licensing and how to apply for a goods vehicle operator’s licence (document GV74) is available online in pdf form at:
Although the rule change that requires small trailers operated for hire or reward to obtain an operator’s licence came into force on 4 December, the Department for Transport has advised that they would not expect this new requirement to be actively enforced by VOSA until June 2012 to allow appropriate time for those affected to apply for an operator’s licence.
Examples
In each of the following examples a Van below 3,500 kgs (3.5t) and a small trailer is used to transport a mini-digger from a depot to a work site. The gross plated weights of vehicle and trailer when combined exceed 3.5t. These examples cover most circumstances, however there are more than these simple examples so if you are in any doubt please contact VOSA enquiries.
Example 1 - The digger is owned by you, the user of the vehicle. You use the digger on the site. This transport is done on your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 2 - The digger is rented by you, the user of the vehicle. You use the digger on the site. This transport is done on your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 3 - The digger is rented by you, the owner of the digger is the user of the vehicle (they deliver to site for you to use). You use the digger on the site. This transport is done on the "own account" of the digger renting company and they do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 4 - The digger is owned by the building company, you collect it from building company’s depot and bring to site. You use the digger on the site. This transport is done on your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 5 - The digger is owned by the building company, having used the digger you take it from one site to another site (where the digger is stored). This transport is done on your own account and you do not need an operator’s licence.
Example 6 - The digger is not owned by you, you collect it from a depot and deposit it at a site where another company uses it. If you are rewarded for this work in any way (payment or in kind) this is hire or reward, you have not undertaken this work on your own account, you have made a pure freight journey – and you will therefore need an operator’s licence.
dated 23/12/2011
24th Dec 2011 11:35 am
Frapp
Member Since: 19 Dec 2008
Location: Norff Zummerzet
Posts: 1655
Thanks for that Mr Character, all is now crystal clear
A few changes in my favour, Bargain
I will print off and keep in the glovebox of both tugs, If you dont mind.Member of the carrot crank club
Embarrassingly in for the 2nd round, bought another two
D3 Jack Russell carrier
D4 Landmark for towing duties
24th Dec 2011 2:27 pm
Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
So in summary, make sure you get a go on the digger.
such as Land Rovers, Jeeps, and other similar vehicles below 2040kgs unladen weight.
So a D3 at 2419kg is clearly NOT being classed as a dual-purpose vehicle. I wonder what they class it as then? Light truck perhaps?A vaccine does not stop you catching a virus, or passing it on, or getting ill from it, really ill. It does reduce the likelyhood of you dying when really, really ill. Stay Alive - KEEP AWAY FROM PEOPLE.
24th Dec 2011 6:59 pm
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
either way Nav it would appear those effected (including myself) would have to consider:
a) Applying for a O-licence to tow one vehicle
b) Buy a 3500kg single car transporter and run overweight like the other muppets
c) Ditch the D3 and hope the BofE's will loan me 40k + on a Merc 515 Sprinter chassis to convert to a single car transporter towing a 7'6 wide tri-axle BJ, then apply for an O-licence with the hope that we get one
d) Canvass my local MP's / The PM to get the Construction & Use Regs updated to include DPV vehicles up to 2700kg
Pees me off coz according to those examples, I can drive my D3/trailer to the auction house, buy a vehicle at the sales, load it and transport it back home without the need for an O-licence as technically the vehicle is mine as its not been sold to anyone else, but bringing a vehicle in whether recovery or otherwise then I will need an O-Licence.
SIMPLES........
Last edited by character on 29th Dec 2011 2:21 am. Edited 1 time in total
Which will never stop the and those that drive illegally now.Mark.
2006, D3 SE Auto - gone but not forgotten.
2014 BMW 530d M Sport Tourer.
1977 Triumph Spitfire 1500
_________________________________________________
Disco Picture Website Here
26th Dec 2011 1:03 pm
Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
The DPV threshold is definitely the most obvious problem.
The fact most of the official correspondence ignores it was enough of a clue, just a shame they didn't address it properly in the most recent changes.
26th Dec 2011 1:30 pm
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
recon we might need to get together as a group of "concerned" DPV owners to put pressure on our respective ministers to get the definition of DPV raised
27th Dec 2011 9:39 pm
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 72901
Might be worth trying to get JLR involved ?
27th Dec 2011 9:41 pm
Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
I'd certainly support that.
27th Dec 2011 9:50 pm
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
tell yer what, really peeing me off this one yer know.........the idea of these changes are to improve road safety and to create a level competitive plain, yet all its going to do is to encourage more and more 3500kg single car carriers to run overweight.
According to this "definitive" guide, if the appliance/vehicle being carried is mine by legal title, then its not HIRE OR REWARD despite being used by a third party and for my financial betterment
27th Dec 2011 9:56 pm
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
Guys I recon we all need to pull together on this one as I can see very few DPV weighing 2040kg or less that are capable of carrying a "commercially" viable sized trailer.
27th Dec 2011 10:01 pm
Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
Its clearly ridiculous in its current form because the very vehicles which are legal are not heavy enough to be safe doing the work.
Plus they state Land Rovers are OK - when most are not.
Outdated, not reflective of the current market and doesn't give dispensation to the people who whom its designed to do so.
What's first then, draft something up on here? Could do an online petition but they only get debated once you reach 100k and that might be a struggle.
27th Dec 2011 10:04 pm
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
just had a few mins looking at the obvious vehicles I see towing trailers, interesting that alot are infact below 2040kg unladened weight but do not pull 3500kg (ie L200/Ford Ranger/VW Pickup etc are all below 2040kg but pull around 2300 - 3200 kg braked trailers)
Looking at LR, would appear a few still fall just within or just outside:
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:
and those that drive illegally now.
