Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
LTB00044, Subject: Navigation System Upgrade - Destination On The Move (Commonly referred to as Nav on the Move) states:
Customers may request the ability to be able to set navigation system destinations or way points whilst the vehicle is in motion. This feature may, as a customer chargeable enhancement, be enabled by following the Service Instruction below.
The document then goes on to describe in detail how the dealer should use their IDS system to list all the modules of the infotainment system that are fitted and work out the time for updating (flash programming to the latest software) each, to come up with a total time, that is then multiplied by their labour rate to arrive at a final bill, that i know from some who have had this done is most often in excess of 200 GBP. I noted there was no mechanism provided for detecting and thereby no allowance for discounting by any ECU which was already on the latest software.
In fact the entire document seemed to me to be very slanted towards a maximum profitability aspect.
As many will now be starting to figure for themselves but i am deeply into this stuff and i have my own suspicions that some listed units do not need updating at all.
However despite this, i believe i might have some very good reasons why many dealers might shy away from wanting to do this.
Firstly it is extremely time consuming. The Touch screen programming alone takes nearly 2 hours and add on to that another 4 or 5 ECU's and you can easily be looking at 4 plus hours that their IDS is stuck on one car. which also requires careful planning, especially where many dealerships don't have a lot of IDS systems to go round. The car will also need to be externally powered to prevent the battery dying mid way as well as their IDS system.
Next there is the reliability of communications aspect. Communications on the MOST bus is not done directly, it has to go through the main Audio head unit (IHU) that's the reason that it takes far longer to transfer data. for example only slightly less data is uploaded to an EMS in about a third the time. If during this lengthy process a glitch occurs (as seems to happen quite often) either at the CAN or MOST levels then the IDS cops out and has to go back to the very start. That can be economically troublesome for a dealer and after having done a few vehicles ourself with the dealer IDS it has wasted a lot of our time too
Another problem is that sometimes the IDS system can have bugs in its database that prevent the system from being able to upgrade a unit because it cannot automatically determine what to upload.
For example, one of the latest patch release notes on the latest disk states that it has fixed a bug for the Audio AMP upload selection for the Sport and they will fix it so the AMP of the D3 can be done in some later release That's a bummer as the AMP is one of the non optional items listed in the required Nav on move enable process.
In fact in general most dealers have a real fear of programming ECU's. In times gone by especially it was quite easy to irrecoverably loose an ECU especially with dealer equipment. The problem is that the first step of an upgrade is to erase all existing data in an ECU. If during an upgrade the system cops out for any reason the most obvious being the voltage drops too low, you have to start again. However for dealer tools with their automatic database the correct files to program are determined by reading the assembly number of the current contents, thats a bit difficult when you just erased them
Its a bit better now, with voltage checks being added, new power supplies being issued and ECU / IDS software designs being improved to cope with it, but i still know of cases where dealers have lost ECU's and had to order wait for replacements and try and recover costs of potentially thousands by arguing that they just follewed the instructions.
Wiggs has not told you, however he is aware of the immense amount of effort that we have put into getting our flashing capability to be as reliable as possible and frankly i believe that by judicious use of common sense and logic and an open minded approach to possible problems and better solutions to re establish and continue uploads as well as not having to go to the start on 2 step programming such as with NAV on the move. I would have no hesitation in stating that we can not only flash simple stuff like straight to CAN ECU's far more quickly and reliably than anything else but also handle lengthy MOST bus stuff better too.
Our database provides manual know what you are doing capability as well.
So although a lengthy post, i hope i have at least suitably explained to the satisfaction of all why through a dealership, anyone might imagine this to be too expensive or not possible while with our equipment that's just not the case. and as for if you need to program the other MOST ECU's or not, well with our equipment you can find out. either way. Certainly we have done Nav on the move successfully without programing the other MOST ECU's too.
Steve i hope that you can hook up with one of the growing number of our customers llike Wiggs that have invested in our multi vehicle option so they can prove my points. In fact in many other forums a thread with a list is created for this reason.
Pete, Although the IDS may have some weak spots as pointed out, these are mainly only a problem in some respects and in respect of a lack of experience and time constraints / accountability of the user. neither of these factors are anything i imagine you would have any difficulty with.
Wiggs, once again, nice work. Many here do not appreciate that you have bought and paid for your equipment and software just like anyone else. and that your offer to try out all our pre release software on your own day to day transport is done with no small risk and with our customers and all members interest at heart.
Your efforts have, on a growing number of occasions, uncovered problems that we would otherwise have not known about and have afforded us the opportunity to understand better and rectify them and product far better first time results for everyone. For that sir i do salute you.
Am I correct in assuming take that Wiggs was testing the Nav on the Move and that I can't do it yet with 1.25?Have a nice day!
2010 Cayenne Diesel with PASM & Off Road Pkg
2005 HSE D3 (Sold)
5th May 2009 4:18 am
BBS SPY Site Sponsor
Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
That's right Jamo
Wiggs is testing all our pre release software to find any bugs or problems we might have missed.
He is very good at that.
At the moment we are wrapping up our ECU re flashing capabilities, which are extensively required to be used to enable Nav on the move. It will likely still be a couple of weeks before the version of software with Re Flashing capabilities included is generally released and down loadable off our web site by all our system owners, most likely as V1.26.
However as i am sure most everyone will realize, we are not exactly sitting on our hands here at BBS HQ
5th May 2009 10:00 am
mehari
Member Since: 14 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Belgium and often in Brittany
Posts: 91
Darn' !
Missed the April 30th deadline and now everything is 20% more expensive... on 800 euros that quite a lot of money.... just enough to kill the impulse purchase... Should we make pressure on BBS Spy to extend the offer for a few days A second D3 ! This time with all whistles and bells (Auto, 7seats, Diff Lock, RAI, all kinds of protections, winch, Extended range tank, iPod adapter....)
First time twice the same car ! and first time third car of the same brand !
I'm loving it !
5th May 2009 1:31 pm
tintenter
Member Since: 29 Sep 2006
Location: Oldham
Posts: 1111
In my case it would need extending by a few months which i feel is unfair to BBS , the main reason being that having spent £499 on the Bellautos system i will need to accumilate funds where swmbo can't see them. Tintenter
Corris Grey Discovery 4 HSE
Bigger permagrin now installed
Semper in excretum, sole profundum moveat.
5th May 2009 1:36 pm
PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
mehari wrote:
Missed the April 30th deadline and now everything is 20% more expensive...
No it's not....it is actually 25% more expensive than last week....
Although the correct way of looking at it would be to say that it WAS 20% cheaper than it is now....now it's just the normal retail price.
If I'd have had the money spare I would have bought one too at that price. I'm sure I still will, but not just yet. 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE AutoBuckingham Blue 2007 Golf GT DSG
5th May 2009 1:37 pm
PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
tintenter wrote:
will need to accumilate funds where swmbo can't see them.
You must have read my mind 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE AutoBuckingham Blue 2007 Golf GT DSG
5th May 2009 1:39 pm
DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
Wiggs, are there any additional facilities that can be enabled on an 06 HSE or do I already have everything that there is. ie can TV be enabled if I get a recevier ?? etcDuncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
2nd Jun 2009 11:34 am
Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
DiscoDunc,
This is the CCF file were you can change settings:
I can switch on and off daytime running lights etc.
For some thing you might need additional hardware or need new software in the D3 I think. Like the sat on the move.
The next version should have the possibility to upgrade the software to the newest versions.
The BBS updates are free off charge.
I tried to do the 3 flash indicator, but I don't get that working and Baben also didn't succeed on a 2006 D3. I think we might need some new software in the D3 to make that work.Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
2nd Jun 2009 11:47 am
DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
Thanks, I'm still saving/justifying a purchase but if I could enable more features than I already have that may swing the balance Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
2nd Jun 2009 12:01 pm
wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14372
DiscoDunc wrote:
Wiggs, are there any additional facilities that can be enabled on an 06 HSE or do I already have everything that there is. ie can TV be enabled if I get a recevier ?? etc
Not a great deal unfortunatly
Tv ..yes if you add the hardware i can enable the icon
Its greyed out here because i dont have the tv module .G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
2nd Jun 2009 3:46 pm
DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
are you coming to Eastnor ??, would be good to have a look at the kit. What package did you buy and did it include everthing you needed (cables etc). I would need it for a single vehicle with the ability to add a second (D4) later next year.
BBS... are you at Eastnor ?Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
2nd Jun 2009 3:52 pm
wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14372
Dunc ,
No plans on comming to Eastnor
Kit i got was
HW017 FAULTMATE 2 MSV EXTREME (one with screen on - can use on its own without pc)
LD032 COMPUTER LEAD (9PIN DIN TO 9 PIN DIN - for connecting from msv2 to pc)
LD020 COMPUTER LEAD (this is the VCI lead -vehicle server interface) connects into the OBD2 port and the 15 pin connector on the MSV2
LD011 COMPUTER LEAD (this one is an extension lead for the VCI lead to extend it - not used mine yet)
Thats for 1 vehicle . When the d4 is out im sure BBS will soon update it for that .G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
2nd Jun 2009 4:04 pm
DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
Thanks, was that the SV222 ? did you need to buy a serial-USB converter ?Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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, the main reason being that having spent £499 on the Bellautos system i will need to accumilate funds where swmbo can't see them. 
