Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14387
LR will know of some, but not all failures as cars will be repaired outside of the LR network. Getting numbers will be difficult. However, with the new D5 coming out using the same engine, LR will be very concious of any spanners upsetting their launch by casting doubts on the engine.
A good media campagin hi-lighting the issue and LR's different response with different markets would certainly get their attention. Add into this the oil pump and a few other odds and sods and LR could have a bigger issue on their hands. If all those on here also reported it to the relvant State bodies and a pattern emerged then that would also add weight. Unless its recorded and numbers are generated, bleating on here will not help.
Also, LR don't help themselves by making the cost of repair disproportinate to the vehicle value so many good vehicles just get scrapped.New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!)
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23rd Dec 2016 2:00 pm
SafariDave
Member Since: 19 Nov 2011
Location: NYC & LA
Posts: 775
This reminds me of the D2 2003-4 V8 models with failing oil pumps or sliding piston sleeve era. The slipping sleeves syndrome tend to happen to at least 40% of all D2 that overheat. Bad built V8 blocks with pourus issues. That go bang. But all have head gasket issues by 60 to 70k. And let's not bring up the P38 V8 4.6.
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23rd Dec 2016 2:06 pm
Deanos_Beano
Member Since: 21 Feb 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 563
DG wrote:
marian wrote:
DG, I do not know the real extent of the problem.
But it's not small. So I believe there's a problem..
Despite what others take out of context ...I know there is a crank problem.
The numbers game determines whether its a big or small problem .....sales v failures. If peeeps are able to offer evidence in SA, UK, Russia, CZ or where-ever that there are X number of T\SDV6 Discos and X number have had a crank failure and the %age was say 5, 10, 15% ..then I would roll over and expose my belly in submission and beg forgiveness for my idiocy.
As it stands no one can supply figures which back that up. What we do have are independent figures that indicate the numbers are within range of what any manufacturer would consider normal.
Give me the darn figures ....sales v failures
If you "know there is a problem " , whyvare you so adamant there is no concern and vehemently defending LR at the present official percentage at 2013 of 1.3 percent where a crankshaft is at fault ? ! I dont get it , ?
I totally understand your not wanting people stating 15 % , thats a valid defence but I fjnd it incredulous that your defending the current official figures as Acceptable losses for a single point of failure ? I just dont see that as a selfless stance to be honest
23rd Dec 2016 2:19 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
What is there not to get? There is a known problem... I have never said anywhere that there isn't... LR have acknowledged similar... there is the known failure rate of engines provided by independent sources.
If Ford\LR know that there was an identified production failure point in the crank that applied to all vehicles ever sold then that would significant grounds for a recall, however it's clear that the failures are completely sporadic.It's not about defending LR ...it's just those are the facts as we know it.
I think what we all agree on is that LR should really be looking after those affected in a far more meaningful manner.21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
23rd Dec 2016 2:58 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20841
Gareth wrote:
I'm not sure if this is a feasible recall event? To redesign and replace the engine in every 3.0 application would be a very big job, maybe impossible.
However, to deal with the failures in a more compassionate way, and moving forward ensure that there are enough affordable available spares to allow the aftermarket to repair older vehicles is the way to keep customers on side as much as possible?
Member Since: 21 Feb 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 563
DG wrote:
What is there not to get? There is a known problem... I have never said anywhere that there isn't... LR have acknowledged similar... there is the known failure rate of engines provided by independent sources.
If Ford\LR know that there was an identified production failure point in the crank that applied to all vehicles ever sold then that would significant grounds for a recall, however it's clear that the failures are completely sporadic.It's not about defending LR ...it's just those are the facts as we know it.
I think what we all agree on is that LR should really be looking after those affected in a far more meaningful manner.
I think I quite clearly stated it was your lack of concern and your incessant pointing to a low percentage but not respecting the single point of failure .
I guess what im saying is you keep asking for proof , you have it from LR in an article 1.3% relating to a SPF , if you can show another manufacturer that has had the same percentile relating to an SPF , I coukd see your defence of the situation , but I cant recall one or believe if such a catastrophic failure was to happen there wouldnt / isnt going to be a recall .
Quote:
I've said this numerous times now but as unfortunate as this is ...don't get hysterical over numbers of failures as they are still tiny compared to the number of engines out there and within the average% of all engine failures
23rd Dec 2016 3:11 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
There's no need to psychoanalyse my level of concern...AFAIC we live in a imperfect world where things fail and break to a level which is either acceptable or unacceptable, single point of failure or not and of course to those that it happens to then it is always going to be unacceptable.
As for proof, some are suggesting that the figure was higher and it was the proof of that which I was requesting.
If you think that they are going to recall c.600,000 D3\4's to replace the cranks on the basis that 1.3% have failed then good luck with that
As for other examples ...let's look at BMW's response to catastrophic engine failure caused by timing chains :
BMW offers a comprehensive, full three-year warranty on all new cars sold in the UK. Outside of this warranty period, while there is no obligation to assist with the costs of repairs, BMW operates a generous goodwill policy and will consider financial help, depending on the specific circumstances of each case.
Reviewing the customer cases which you have mentioned, the circumstances of each vary widely, as has the response from BMW. Where a fault has occurred on a vehicle with relatively low mileage, which has been serviced within the BMW network, the company has covered most of the repair out of goodwill, despite being outside of the warranty period,
Older vehicles, which have not been serviced or repaired by BMW-authorised technicians, where there can be no certainty as to the quality of the work done or whether genuine BMW parts were used are typically not covered. The use of non-genuine parts, which don’t match BMW specifications, can actually damage other components in the car or harm the performance of its vital systems. Whilst we appreciate the disappointment this will have caused, we cannot provide an indefinite guarantee against engine or component failure, as no manufacturer can.
BMW is committed to ensuring the best possible customer satisfaction and takes all customer concerns extremely seriously. In the case of unusual engine noise, or a more serious fault, there can be a wide variety of causes and further information is required before any conclusion can be reached. If any of your viewers is concerned about their car following your programme, they should call BMW Group UK directly on 08000 93 56 56, where we would be happy to advise them.
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Member Since: 02 Oct 2016
Location: Lower Austria
Posts: 86
Well, then we basically come to the same conclusion
There's a problem and instead of acknowledging it and handling it properly (fair price of replacement engine + contribution under certain conditions), LR is playing games.
23rd Dec 2016 4:44 pm
Deanos_Beano
Member Since: 21 Feb 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 563
DG wrote:
There's no need to psychoanalyse my level of concern.
..there is If I own a D4 that is susceptible and I feel your trying to stifle the importance of the problem though in my opinion
Quote:
If you think that they are going to recall c.600,000 D3\4's to replace the cranks on the basis that 1.3% have failed then good luck with that
I dont see the need for this statement at all , less so as it simply has no basis anywhere or justification .
Quote:
As for other examples ...let's look at BMW's response to catastrophic engine failure caused by timin chains ...
!
Cheers for that , ill have a read , I already see an official recognition and contribution statement which is something , I dont see the SPF though it seems to be generic to all failures from the BMW statement ?
This thread us doing my nut in, back and forth over opinions and little facts.
The D3 had numerous faults, turbos, oil pumps to name but two big failures, mine ran to 150k without either before I sold it.
The D4 no doubt like all Marques has failures too, the crank we ALL know is one of them, mines at 44k, I know cars well over 100k without failure, topics like this always spark emotion on forums, owners come to forums to try and find solutions when things go wrong, I've been on both Ford and VW forums in the past (currently on a Grey Fergy one as I'm rebuilding 2 ) it's the nature of forums.
No one ever comes on and says, I did X hundred miles this last week with no issue, and few like to say, my car is at X thousand miles without failing as they feel they'll jinx it (DSL ).
So can we wrap this up, it Christmas, I feel really sorry for those affected, I hope mine never has a failure, it's now just out or LR Warrenty (jinx) , all these threads do is stir up worry for owners who then shell out to WD etc based on fear that theirs will fail.
If it is 1:72, and I don't know it is, its better than the odds of many life threatening / changing illnesses illnesses, cancer 1:3, we ALL know someone effected, I do personally and have a parent with dementia, £14-16k to take that away for my dad, sure here's my card number, get it done .
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23rd Dec 2016 5:17 pm
Deanos_Beano
Member Since: 21 Feb 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 563
Get out and enter the intimidating drone thread , you now have one so you can contribute
I believe its only fair those with failed cranks and those with Discos susceptible especially pre 12 should be ok to be concerned without the being told or made to sound like henny penny the skys falling in , for some it has and for others our heads feel like they are in the clouds
But yeah I think the debate has run now , lets see the percentages stabilise hopefully
Last edited by Deanos_Beano on 23rd Dec 2016 5:31 pm. Edited 1 time in total
23rd Dec 2016 5:29 pm
Sinci1
Member Since: 13 Dec 2016
Location: Wales
Posts: 62
I wish I'd known before I bought the vehicle, then I wouldn't be in the situation, and lr didn't care to tell in the sales pitch. I sincerely hope that you are never in this situation too. I am also sorry to hear of your dad. I also would pay said amount to rid the world of such horrific diseases that like you say affect so many. However 14-16k to bail a massive profit making company that have admitted they screwed up doesn't sit so well. Merry Christmas to you too.
23rd Dec 2016 5:30 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14387
Well my ridiculously reliable old bus is sitting outside with 199,982 miles on the clock and just purring along. This week she's been to Chester and back, towed the trailer to the tip and collected our vintage caravan today. Tomorrow she will hit 200,000 miles as she takes us shopping for those last minute bits and bobs.
She's a bit like triggers broom in that I replace any worn parts to keep her in fine form and fettle. However, the engine, transmission, starter and turbo are all original. It also helps having a brilliant garage that really know their stuff - well done Corsham Tyres.
She's only let us down once when the original alternator died last year on our way to the Tunnel. At 175,000 miles I can live with that sort of unreliability. New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!)
Sold Volvo XC90 R-Design (known as Basil)
Sold - D4 HSE (Known as Gerty)
No longer the Old Buses original owner
231,000 miles and counting
05 S manual owned from March 2005
D4 Face lifted
Still original injectors and turbo
V8 Front brakes
BAS Remap, Allisport Intercooler and deCat
EGRs blanked
T-Max split charge
Hanibal Expeedition rack
Prospeed ladder
Duratrac tyres
IID BT
BAS FBH control
23rd Dec 2016 5:41 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
beanie wrote:
So can we wrap this up, it Christmas, :
OK ....just because it's Christmas
Sinci1 despite all thats written here ..I do have a heart and I would be the first to sign a petition to get LR to do more about this for you.
Beano thanks for the healthy debate ...I'm sure time will reveal all and we can have another 'discussion'.
Greg all the best to your dad mate. 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
23rd Dec 2016 5:54 pm
Deanos_Beano
Member Since: 21 Feb 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 563
DG it was good to debate , I hope we informed others somehow and I echo the rest of your post
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
There is a known problem... I have never said anywhere that there isn't... LR have acknowledged similar... there is the known failure rate of engines provided by independent sources.
) it's the nature of forums.
).
