Member Since: 30 Apr 2011
Location: Manchester
Posts: 2326
Mogwyth wrote:
And no packed lunches allowed, school dinners are compulsory.
That was the same at my sons school, apparently it was to ensure the kids got a proper meal rather than crisps and chocolate some parents put in the lunchboxIf it ain't broke... Take it apart anyway, how else you gonna find out how it works
30th Jul 2016 9:57 am
Riccardo
Member Since: 20 Feb 2010
Location: Porto (was Kent)
Posts: 4123
DG wrote:
Making pupils sit in isolation for issues unrelated to them is draconian and Barry should be ashamed for sending out such a disgraceful letter.
Agree if they really do it but in this discussion I have yet to see a proper attention for the real offfenders who are the parents
Surely if they do what everybody has done and when it has to be done it would not even be needed to define course of actions, letters etc etc etc. What a waste of time and energies for stupid parents not paying for what is due.
The damage on the children is far worse in having parents with no sense of respectIt takes all sorts (to make a world).
D3 HSE LHD gone but not forgotten
30th Jul 2016 10:06 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50977
Quote:
but in this discussion I have yet to see a proper attention for the real offenders who are the parents
I don't really care how they deal with the parents ...maybe send Barry around with a baseball bat ...but leave the kids out of it 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
30th Jul 2016 10:21 am
Beno2
Member Since: 18 Apr 2009
Location: SE
Posts: 993
The school has the main responsibility for allowing the situation to get like this. The school dinner system needs to be changed. You would not go into a restaurant have a meal and suggest to them that you will pay later.
Anyway does this letter head look genuine to you? ( No contact details on the letter) D3 HSE
30th Jul 2016 10:31 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50977
Quote:
Michaela Deputy Head, Barry Smith, who is said to have devised the "lunch isolation" scheme, has described the school as having strict academic principles and a "zero tolerance discipline" system.
In a recent blog post, Mr Smith said: "You send your daughter to Michaela she won’t be sexually harassed by male pupils. Corridors and lesson change overs are silent. Pupils walk in single file."
"You send your son or daughter to Michaela and you don’t have to worry that they’ll dread lunchtime because they’re friendless. Every child sits according to the seating plan teachers have designed."
"At the end of the school day, there are lots of detentions," he added, "at lunch, there are lots of detentions".
Michaela Community School opened in Wembley Park in September 2014 and has an 840 pupil capacity.
The Independent has contacted the school for comment.
If they are late they will damage not only them but also the others
I find this hard to believe.
Never in my school years did I notice anybody bat an eyelid because somebody was late. A big deal was never made of it - just a stern word from the teacher if they deemed appropriate. There would always be a silent reaction - depending on who it was, it would range from an "Oh, late again " to "Oh, he's not usually late. Wonder what's up?" - but everybody would just carry on as they were; there was never any disruption or effect on each other. The reason why is that factor that is most forgotten of all where school practice is considered. Pupils know each other, they're friends, they're enemies, they know what each other is like, they talk, they understand, they have opinions of each other. It makes all the difference.
Quote:
Being on time at school as much as for an adult being on time at work is their responsibility ultimately irrespectively on how they get there. At work you might be fired because of that (again if done regularly) and saying that it was not your responsibility to drive the car would not save you
Yes, but it's not as if a child has any alternative or ability to come close to dealing with it.
To most children, it's not nice being late for school without any further punishment on top, and to those that really don't care, any punishment also goes straight over their heads. As usual, therefore, it's only the innocent that suffer.
However you want to look at it, it does no good at all to punish children for things outside their control. Indeed, it is that that is severely damaging above all else.Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Jul 2016 10:50 am
Riccardo
Member Since: 20 Feb 2010
Location: Porto (was Kent)
Posts: 4123
Sounds like being in the Army.
Certainly there is a need of more discipline in the system (had my daughter and her english friends being bullied when she was 4 in a good school by lunch supervisors aged 10) but this might be a little bit too strict
DG wrote:
I don't really care how they deal with the parents ...maybe send Barry around with a baseball bat ...but leave the kids out of it
Agree but no children have been harmed it because of that letter but maybe the parents will listen to it if they really care about their children wellbeingIt takes all sorts (to make a world).
D3 HSE LHD gone but not forgotten
30th Jul 2016 10:53 am
Riccardo
Member Since: 20 Feb 2010
Location: Porto (was Kent)
Posts: 4123
Lost for Words wrote:
Riccardo wrote:
If they are late they will damage not only them but also the others
I find this hard to believe.
Never in my school years did I notice anybody bat an eyelid because somebody was late. A big deal was never made of it - just a stern word from the teacher if they deemed appropriate.
Yeah right lets arrive at any time as what is the point of starting activities in time and what is the point of actually having a time when you need to go to school.
As said it is a matter of respect towards the others and to me it is is easy to understand what I mean. It is not just being late for the lesson
I am not for punishment specially for children but for ensuring they understand that what you do has consequences. Being the teacher if somebody is late I would stop everything and have silence and ask for an explanation. Do not think this is a punishment. It is what I was seeing also at the university but there it was likely that the professor would remember you at the exams ...It takes all sorts (to make a world).
I'm simply saying that this big disruption and effect on pupils just isn't there. I'm not saying it's fine for people to be late, but it does not call for major punitive measures that affect the genuine pupils and never really takle the real truants. Above all, it serves to make a bigger issue of the whole thing.
Quote:
Being the teacher if somebody is late I would stop everything and have silence and ask for an explanation.
Personally, I would consider it more appropriate and respectful to have a private conversation with the child than probe their personal affairs in front of their classmates.Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Jul 2016 11:16 am
Beno2
Member Since: 18 Apr 2009
Location: SE
Posts: 993
Quote:
Personally, I would consider it more appropriate and respectful to have a private conversation with the child than probe their personal affairs in front of their classmates.
... D3 HSE
30th Jul 2016 11:20 am
Riccardo
Member Since: 20 Feb 2010
Location: Porto (was Kent)
Posts: 4123
Lost for Words wrote:
I'm simply saying that this big disruption and effect on pupils just isn't there. I'm not saying it's fine for people to be late, but it does not call for major punitive measures that affect the genuine pupils and never really takle the real truants. Above all, it serves to make a bigger issue of the whole thing.
Who is talking about major punitive measures?
Lost for Words wrote:
Quote:
Being the teacher if somebody is late I would stop everything and have silence and ask for an explanation.
Personally, I would consider it more appropriate and respectful to have a private conversation with the child than probe their personal affairs in front of their classmates.
And to me that is defying the whole point I am trying to make
The main problem of being late is that you interrupt the activities of the others and impact them.
I am less worried if your action has only consequences on you
IMHO a private conversation is appropriate and respectful for personal things or things leading to consequences only on the individual not for behaviours which are having consequences on the othersIt takes all sorts (to make a world).
D3 HSE LHD gone but not forgotten
30th Jul 2016 11:33 am
Beno2
Member Since: 18 Apr 2009
Location: SE
Posts: 993
Why would you stop the lesson just to make a point to the late child and disturb the lesson for all the other children. A quite word later would be more appropriate.. D3 HSE
30th Jul 2016 11:39 am
leprechaun
Member Since: 30 Mar 2015
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 158
DG wrote:
Quote:
Michaela Deputy Head, Barry Smith, who is said to have devised the "lunch isolation" scheme, has described the school as having strict academic principles and a "zero tolerance discipline" system.
In a recent blog post, Mr Smith said: "You send your daughter to Michaela she won’t be sexually harassed by male pupils. Corridors and lesson change overs are silent. Pupils walk in single file."
"You send your son or daughter to Michaela and you don’t have to worry that they’ll dread lunchtime because they’re friendless. Every child sits according to the seating plan teachers have designed."
"At the end of the school day, there are lots of detentions," he added, "at lunch, there are lots of detentions".
Michaela Community School opened in Wembley Park in September 2014 and has an 840 pupil capacity.
The Independent has contacted the school for comment.
Sounds like a dystopian nightmare, like something from 1984
I'm simply saying that this big disruption and effect on pupils just isn't there. I'm not saying it's fine for people to be late, but it does not call for major punitive measures that affect the genuine pupils and never really takle the real truants. Above all, it serves to make a bigger issue of the whole thing.
Who is talking about major punitive measures?
I mean only by comparison with a simple word if necessary, and obviously for repeat instances the situation is different.
Quote:
Lost for Words wrote:
Quote:
Being the teacher if somebody is late I would stop everything and have silence and ask for an explanation.
Personally, I would consider it more appropriate and respectful to have a private conversation with the child than probe their personal affairs in front of their classmates.
And to me that is defying the whole point I am trying to make
The main problem of being late is that you interrupt the activities of the others and impact them.
I simply disagree that, in the majority of circumstances, it is a significant disruption, unless the teacher should choose to make it one.
Quote:
I am less worried if your action has only consequences on you
IMHO a private conversation is appropriate and respectful for personal things or things leading to consequences only on the individual not for behaviours which are having consequences on the others
We aren't talking about regular truants here, but a single instance of lateness where it is not yet known for what reason a pupil is late - it could be any number of sensitive things. Discretion is afforded by the matter in hand, not the prevailing circumstances. Apart from anything, if it is a purely mundane reason, I doubt the other pupils would have the faintest interest, or appreciate being made to sit through it either.
I think you over complicate the situation and it's actually a lot more self-regulating than might be thought. If there's one thing I learnt at school it was that discipline as a tool rather than just the necessary left pupils in a state of contempt like no other, and instead they would respond overwhelmingly well when given a little respect and treated as equals instead. The ability to do the latter well is the true mark of a great teacher.
Education should not be about making people do what you want or preaching convention, but about helping them to think for themselves. I was a well behaved child throughout school - never was I because anybody told me, but because I saw no reason to cause problems, and teachers who where likeable and tolerant with their students were able to bring others around to that point of view in the way that the heavily authoritarian ones never could.
It's about being objective, and increased discipline is not the way to get anywhere. Current: Discovery 3 06MY (55 reg) HSE Auto Zambezi Silver Allisport Fast Road Intercooler, V8 Brakes, Silicone IC Hoses, EGRs Blanked, Remapped, De-Cat pipe, FBHIC
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30th Jul 2016 12:51 pm
Riccardo
Member Since: 20 Feb 2010
Location: Porto (was Kent)
Posts: 4123
Beno2 wrote:
Why would you stop the lesson just to make a point to the late child and disturb the lesson for all the other children. A quite word later would be more appropriate..
The child constantly arriving late would disrupt it
Lost for words wrote:
I mean only by comparison with a simple word if necessary, and obviously for repeat instances the situation is different.
The more I read what you say to more I think we are not really saying substantiallydifferent things
I said previously in this discussion that I would not even take any action the first time it happens (and being the parent I would as I did say to the teacher if it was my fault for being late) and if it happens as a Teacher I would just talk to him/her
Guess the only disagreement remains around when to talk to him/her
Lost for words wrote:
We aren't talking about regular truants here, but a single instance of lateness where it is not yet known for what reason a pupil is late - it could be any number of sensitive things. Discretion is afforded by the matter in hand, not the prevailing circumstances.
I actually was talking about "repeat offenders" as I mention before
Lost for words wrote:
Education should not be about making people do what you want or preaching convention, but about helping them to think for themselves.
Fully agree and that is what I try to do with my daughter. As said once more, the increase discipline would come only for "repeat offenders"
Discipline and doing things in the right way at school can actually be counterproductive
Had a christening in Belgium. My son in Law (I was his godfather). It was on saturday with preparation of the ceremony including me on friday afternoon with the family reunited after the preparation.
Requested to the school to approve the absence of my daughter for friday. They requested me to write a letter to the governor. I did it explaining everything well in advance. Result?
On friday they sent a letter rejecting the absence. Spoke to the teacher to be told that even if there are permit given in those circumstances it was useless to ask for it as they would never approve it she also told me I should have just phoned in the morning saying she was sick It takes all sorts (to make a world).
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" to "Oh, he's not usually late. Wonder what's up?" - but everybody would just carry on as they were; there was never any disruption or effect on each other. The reason why is that factor that is most forgotten of all where school practice is considered. Pupils know each other, they're friends, they're enemies, they know what each other is like, they talk, they understand, they have opinions of each other. It makes all the difference.
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