Member Since: 01 May 2006
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 255
drivesafe wrote:
Sorry Robbie but much of your info is not correct.
For a starter, the 1/10 charging recommendation is a trade off between how long it will take to charge a battery and using too much current to charge a battery.
If you need to charge a FLAT battery over night so the battery is fully charged the next day then the 1/10 is the recommended maximum charge current to use to avoid shortening the battery’s life span, if the battery is charged in this way on a regular basis.
If on the other hand, you have plenty of time to charge a battery, any type of battery, then the lower the charge current you can realistically use, the far better it is for the battery.
The 1/10th rule is to prevent overheating - if you use a charger with a temperature feedback you can use a higher rate, likewise charging at fractionally over internal dissipation will lead to a sulphated battery (from fully flat), which is why you should not use a trickle charger to charge a fully flat battery.
8th Apr 2012 9:26 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Sorry PSC, but thats not what is being talked about.
Sulfation occurs when a battery's chemical reaction settles and yes if you are using a trickle charger to try to charge a FLAT battery, you will not stop sulfation from occurring.
But we are not talking about trickle charging a battery, the thread is about a 5 amp battery charger which is heaps big enough to fully charge any battery and avoid sulfation from occurring.
A battery charger as small as 1 amp will safely charge a 100Ah battery, a trickle charger, which is usually only around 100-150ma would be a problem but again, we are talking about a 5 amp charger.
As for the temperature prevention, this is only one of the reasons for the 1/10 recommendation but is not the context of what is being discussed here.
The suggestion was that you needed the 1/10 to properly charge a battery and this is not correct.
Furthermore, the inference that voltages above 16v are harmful is also incorrect.
All vehicles tolerate voltages above 18v and have done so for many years. The reason for the 18+ voltage tolerance to protect a vehicle’s electrical systems in case of a runaway alternator, where the voltage of an unregulated alternator rises to 18v.
This is not something that occurs very often now days but it was a common problem not so long ago.
If you have high voltages like 18v, you may blow a few light globes and you will eventually cook the battery but you will not harm the vehicle’s electrical systems.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
8th Apr 2012 10:42 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Hi Drivesafe,
Not exactly sure where you are coming from as I gave the context of the rule of thumb (3 to 5 hours charging) and gave the charging time of a lower max amperage and stated that you can (and probably should) go lower. I even gave my example of doing this very thing!
As for the safety - agree about the jumpleads but that was not being discussed. Connecting a smart charger direct to a battery is not suicidal and is recommended by the OEM as no current = no spark.
Regarding the battery life whilst on charge, well I guess you are not familiar with the Ctek but it is a proper smart charger and it will regulate the charging rate. Connecting a larger max amperage Ctek will not damage a battery - honestly it will not. When we talk about a 5 amp Ctek we are talking about its max output rather than a constant current. As you know, compared to the output of the car's generator these things are tiny.
Regarding the 'inference' that 16volt+ is harmful (your 16volt vs 18volt debate) - well I didn't know it was going to be a debate and it's not one I wish to participate in; just passing on information that may be handy for the OP or others. I really don't have the detailed knowledge to go against Land Rover's position with the D3:
Quote:
Trickle charging (defined as voltages <16 volts) may be carried out with the battery connected. Make sure that the battery terminals are fully tightened prior to trickle charging.
CAUTION : Boost charging may only be carried out with the battery disconnected from the vehicle.
The OPs questions were regarding his Ctek and I tried to answer as best as I could in that context. When I was not sure of a point I tried to make that clear too.
Hope this helps.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi Robbie and while this was not about knowing how different battery chargers work, I do have a very good idea of how Cteks work but I prefer to use and sell the worlds best battery chargers.
These are the Sterling battery chargers, you know, the ones designed in the UK and recognised world wide in many different field,. as the best battery chargers available.
So I do have quite a fair idea about battery charges and battery charging.
As to your comparison of a 5 amp battery charger and that of an alternator. These are two totally different charging regimes, working in two totally different ways and there is actually no comparison between the two.
Alternator charging is based on the premiss that you need to get the maximum amount of charge back into a battery in the shortest possible time, while using a battery charger is based on having a sufficient amount of time to be able to fully charge a battery.
Furthermore alternator charging is constant voltage or tapered charging while a battery charger uses constant current charging, again to totally unrelated types of charging.
Also I have never heard of a rule of thumb basis of 3 to 5 hours for charging a battery off a battery charger and this just does not make any sense when you consider that there are so many different factors involved, like the size and depth of discharge of the battery and the size of the battery charger being used and so on.
Last but not least, I don’t care what any battery charger manufacturer or what ever states, it is standard industry safety practice to NEVER connect the second lead to a batteries terminal, no matter what the situation.
Back to Wiggy Man. Mate you have a perfectly good charger there and you problem is more about the type of battery you are trying to charge rather than the type of charger being used.
Calcium/Calcium batteries have a number of advantages over other types of batteries but they can be a cow to properly charge.
If you have the time, try charging the battery till your charger goes into FLOAT mode and then disconnect the charger to let it reset.
Then connect it back up and let it go back into FLOAT mode again.
If you can do this a number of times, if your battery is not stuffed, you will find the battery’s “SETTLED†voltage will progressively rise.
This will not only help the battery to take and hold a better charge from your battery charger, it will help when charging from your alternator, you will find your motor starts easier as well.
You do not have to do this every time you charge your battery with a battery charger but once every 3 to 6 months or so will keep your battery in a better state of charge.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
9th Apr 2012 5:42 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Ok Drivesafe, all understood. In sum, Ctek state that their products are 'spark free' but you have your doubts. Ctek give instructions to the end user on how to connect the product but you think these are incorrect. Ctek state that they control (reduce) the current during charge but you believe they are constant current. Land Rover state that, for a D3, trickle charging is defined as below 16v and above that the battery should be disconnected from the vehicle but you think they are incorrect and that the car can take more.
I'm not knocking your experience, just adding clarity as to where your experience leads you to differ from the OEMs.
I'll go back to working out how to keep all the smoke inside these here wires inside this strange flying machine thing. Think I gonna need a bigger hammer...Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Robbie, do you actually have any idea what you’re posting.
All battery chargers work the same, they apply a constant maximum charge current till they get a battery’s SoC to somewhere around 80% then the voltage is maintained but the current is reduced.
The number of varying stages depends on the charger BUT they are still constant current chargers.
And again, I don’t give a damn what anyone states about their particular charger and how they state you can connect it to a battery. For maximum potential safety, you NEVER connect the last lead to the battery, for reasons posted earlier in this thread.
This is an accepted industry safety standard, for good reasons.
Robbie, it seem pretty obvious you don’t actually have any experience in this field and are simply parroting what you have read somewhere and thats fine, but you really need to understand what you are reading before you instruct others in a field you know nothing about.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
9th Apr 2012 8:52 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
That's ok drivesafe, don't worry about us simple folk up here. Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Robbie wrote:
don't worry about us simple folk up here.
Hi Robbie and I was not implying you were simple folk.
I know nothing about mechanics so I keep out of those discussions and there are many over fields I know little about and stick to reading what others, more experienced, have to say, and this was the only point I was making about your replies.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
9th Apr 2012 9:52 am
paulmeryan
Member Since: 15 Aug 2011
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 742
Robbie wrote:
Plugging one in via the tow electrics (with a reminder ribbon tied to the steering wheel) takes all the drama out of it too.
what do you need to connect to tow electrics Robbie. Did you modify a male 12S plug by splicing the ctek cables into it or is there something on the market that can enable me to do this?VR6 > 330D Touring > D3 HSE > !?XC90?!
18th Apr 2012 3:22 pm
DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
just buy a tow plug and wire some 2-core cable to the appriate pins - then add a couple of connectors on the end that you can connect to the charger lead.
works well on my CTEK MSX7.0 Duncan
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18th Apr 2012 3:32 pm
paulmeryan
Member Since: 15 Aug 2011
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 742
DiscoDunc wrote:
just buy a tow plug and wire some 2-core cable to the appriate pins - then add a couple of connectors on the end that you can connect to the charger lead.
works well on my CTEK MSX7.0
thanks DiscoDunc.
Would like a ctek 7, but would a ctek 5 suffice for the Disco? Specifies up to 110Ah and £35 cheaper!!VR6 > 330D Touring > D3 HSE > !?XC90?!
just buy a tow plug and wire some 2-core cable to the appriate pins - then add a couple of connectors on the end that you can connect to the charger lead.
works well on my CTEK MSX7.0
This is what I did, Ctek in the garage, flying lead under garage door to rear socket of Disco, made of two core mains cable. Just need to remember to unplug it before I drive off
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18th Apr 2012 3:48 pm
DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
paulmeryan wrote:
DiscoDunc wrote:
just buy a tow plug and wire some 2-core cable to the appriate pins - then add a couple of connectors on the end that you can connect to the charger lead.
works well on my CTEK MSX7.0
thanks DiscoDunc.
Would like a ctek 7, but would a ctek 5 suffice for the Disco? Specifies up to 110Ah and £35 cheaper!!
i would think so - ive charged the D3 with a little CTEK Zafir90 in the past - but Drivesafe is your man to confirm what is best Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
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18th Apr 2012 3:54 pm
Ceekay
Member Since: 17 May 2009
Location: Bury
Posts: 2089
I butchered my ctek 2500 by putting a small 50amp anderson plug on the end which now just plugs into the traxide rear anderson plug which is attached to the aux battery. Asked for advice on this off ctek about 3 months ago but got fed up of waiting so just did it. Charges both batteries (assuming they are still in connected mode on the controller) at the same time. Also made up a anderson plug into the to 2 croc clips in case I want to charge direct to the battery (though reading the above think i'd better put 1 of the leads to the chassis )
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18th Apr 2012 4:16 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
paulmeryan wrote:
Would like a ctek 7, but would a ctek 5 suffice for the Disco? Specifies up to 110Ah and £35 cheaper!!
Hi Paul and thats fine.
The smaller the charger, obviously the long it takes to fully charge your battery(s) but this is actually far better for your battery.
In most situations like this, you will have plenty of time to allow the use of a small charger, as above this is far better for your batteries than continually fast charging with a bigger charger.
Also, if you set your charger up so you connect through the tow plugs at the rear or as Ceekay suggested, through an Anderson plug, make the lead long enough so you can hang it over the driver’s side mirror.
That way before you even get in the vehicle, you will be reminded the charger is still connected.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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