DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - LAW REGARDS D3/D4 TOWING AS OF 4TH DEC 2011 -UPDATE 29/05/12

Wack61

Member Since: 12 Apr 2012
Location: Uk
Posts: 6

character wrote:
so have yer sent off yer application prior to the advert has expired - if so yer might want to wait a few days till it has otherwise your application will sit on a very large pile of incomplete applications

Already done it, the advert was in last Thursday's paper, I posted the forms special delivery today so they'll get them tomorrow, it's 21 days either side of tomorrow, if they don't process it in time that's their problem, I've done my bit.

24th Apr 2012 12:18 am

Lesb

Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 12

2012 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial Auto Siberian Silver

Can anyone just clear up a query for me,

I have a Disco 4 Commercial that I occasionally stick a car transporter on (Ifor Williams CT177 ULW 805KG) this is to collect my own vehicles that I have bought and am returning to the garage with them on the trailer.

The Disco is not used for "hire or reward" so does not have a Tacho fitted and it is not on the O licence registered at the garage address (haulage O licence registered to the garage address).

As I am a bit of a dinosaur and this was the position through my earlier years, I thought that because of the fact I am transporting my own goods I am unaffected by this new legislation, but I am becoming increasingly concerned because of all this ambiguity / interpretation of the new legislation that is being posted on here.

So I would appreciate if anyone can clarify the position regarding "Own Goods" and the new legislation, or a good contact number / department as it appears from the posts on here the D of T and VOSA are not really singing from the same hymn sheet.
Thanks
Rgds Les Siberian Silver, Ebony Leather, Commercial Con Pack, Bright Pack, Lux Pack, Sig Lights, suround Cameras, Tow Pack, Arm Rests pack, Runner Boards, etc, ect.

Last edited by Lesb on 24th Apr 2012 10:40 am. Edited 1 time in total

24th Apr 2012 7:14 am

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Alaska White

I guess the question is "to transport a car I have bought", so is this vehicle bought in your own name (no business name on the invoice) or as I suspect bought for the purpose of selling at a profit at some time later - if yes to this last point then there is an element of "reward"

Is the D4 registered on the V5C in the company name or are you a sole trader and thus your accounts show "x" t/a "whatsit car dealer" - if yes then it would be hard to prove any defence for NOT having an OL

Tachograph - you have a descretion of 43 miles from base (100km for a "recovery vehicle"), one mile more and you break the law also there is guidance on VOSA website to clarify where on the vehicle a tacho can be fitted and where it cannot (in simple terms within viewable and reachable of the driver). BTW you'll need a digital tacho, drivers card and "company card" along with having those records downloaded and checked every 21 days.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Guid...cation.pdf

Overall, if you have recieved the hastily prepared guide from VOSA dated 23/12/11, its what is NOT said rather than what is on the examples 1-5

Likewise you cannot claim DPV exemption for a 4X4 that weighs more than 2040kg

PS - From memory, if you buy more than 3 vehicles in any 12 month period then you are considered to be a car dealer in the eyes of DVLA and no doubt part of any investigation by VOSA will be to enquire from DVLA how many vehicles you have aquired in order to establish the need for an OL.

24th Apr 2012 7:46 am

Lesb

Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 12

D4 is registered (V5) to the Garage (LTD Company), at the time of transport the vehicle on trailer is definitely "own goods" as vehicle bought would have been invoiced to Garage (as on V5)

I find it very difficult to believe VOSA would want to argue "reward at some time in the future" as at the time of the incident it is "own goods" (would open a mine field of how to prove profit, what if you take a trade in vehicle or it becomes a chain of sales etc etc )

Operating distance with trailer is normally within 30/35 mile radius when buying vehicles

Rgds
Les Siberian Silver, Ebony Leather, Commercial Con Pack, Bright Pack, Lux Pack, Sig Lights, suround Cameras, Tow Pack, Arm Rests pack, Runner Boards, etc, ect.

24th Apr 2012 8:19 am

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781

so I assume you are on the paye scheme of the ltd company?

Putting it in to perspective then, yer driving the company car which happens to be owned by a vehicles sales business, yer an employee of said business (coz yer on the PAYE scheme) who just happens to have bought a vehicle and is now transporting said vehicle during business hours using the business vehicle/trailer to transport it and you'd expect VOSA or police to accept "oh its my car, but honestly officer I've not bought it for profit or to sell !!"

get yer OL application in rather than trying to be the "one exception" to the rule or better still pay someone who has spent the time and money on being street legal to collect the vehicle

24th Apr 2012 10:26 pm

Lesb

Member Since: 21 Oct 2011
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 12

character wrote:
so I assume you are on the paye scheme of the ltd company?

"oh its my car, but honestly officer I've not bought it for profit or to sell !!"

Facts are. Driver is employee of company. Disc4 Commercial is registered to the Company. The Company owns the trailer and goods on the trailer. The vehicle is within 30 miles of base if stopped with trailer on the back.

I don't know what you are getting at or implying, but the facts at the time of a vehicle check would reveal the above. Not some "Jackanory" story you are assuming / making up.

All I was asking for was if anyone could answer the question regarding transporting "Own Goods" and the new legislation. As I said I am a bit of a Dinosaur and have been in the Contractors Plant / Motor trade dragging trailers around since 1970, so I am not some fly by night trader trying to make a quick buck.

Just for clarification this method is only used for collecting vehicles from Local Main Dealers (usually new) so would have an invoice to produce confirming ownership of goods on trailer if stopped en-route back to base.
At some time in the future I then use a Company (HGV Multi car transporter) to deliver all vehicles when "Sold" as they are usually countrywide deliveries to the end customer. Siberian Silver, Ebony Leather, Commercial Con Pack, Bright Pack, Lux Pack, Sig Lights, suround Cameras, Tow Pack, Arm Rests pack, Runner Boards, etc, ect.

25th Apr 2012 7:56 am

pom

Member Since: 10 Feb 2008
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 1790

2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Bonatti Grey

character wrote:

Likewise you cannot claim DPV exemption for a 4X4 that weighs more than 2040kg

Do you have this in writing from a government department ? I'd be very interested in that.

cheers

Pom

25th Apr 2012 8:57 am

hensoni

Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576

There has been a development regarding the towing of heavy trailers with a 4x4, but unfortunately, it is unlikely to help many people. It's spot on for my situation which is why I know about it.

As some people know, me and the missus tow a 2.5t climbing wall behind either our D3 car or our VW T5 4Motion crew van. Both vehicles belong to us, with the van owned by, and registered to our Ltd company.

A competitor climbing wall company based in Staffordshire were stopped by Avon and Somerset Police as one of their employees was towing their wall with a company 4x4 without a tachograph. Charges were pressed and the employee was hauled up in front of a County Judge in North Somerset. His employer employed a barister to fight the case on behalf of the employee (and the company).

The judgement earlier this week was that a tachograph was not required - but only because of an exemption relating to the trailer as it was argued that the climbing wall is primarily used as an educational aid when stationary (the same exemption as playbuses). I'm trying to get hold of the transcript to find out what arguments were made about DPVs as I suspect their employee was clearly towing for "hire or reward."

As it happens, the case is favourable towards my particular situation so I'm happy! The court details now form an integral part of my trailer paperwork. Club missing my D3

29th May 2012 7:34 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781

well an update at this end for yer all:

As has been previously mentioned, wrote out to various "interested" parties ie VOSA/DofT and Traffic Commissioners Office, so far except DofT all have written back (eventually) going over the basic requirement under the changes and the history of the previous exemption but what has been surpising (or not) is the total confusion from VOSA regards the definition of a DPV in particular to the aspect of whether " a view" can or is being taken regards a DPV that by design is capable of off road and on road travel, offers more than one passenger seat and is 4X4 but (and this is important) WEIGHS MORE THAN 2040KG unladened weight (which excludes everything from the LR range accept 90/110 Station wagon/110 crewcab

This "total confusion" has in part been brought about and continues to be brought about by VOSA giving the above definition and then following up those requirements by saying "such as Land Rovers, Range Rovers and some Japanese 4X4's" along with a VOSA leaflet (dated 23rd Dec 2011) titled "3500kg vehicles towing a trailer" of which it sites six examples of where or not an OL is required and particularly uses the phrase "on your own account" in five of the six examples without giving any definition to what "own account" actually means thus furthering everyones confusion

This week I finally got a telephone call from a Senior Team Leader of the Goods Operating Licencing Division in Leeds on the back of my written letter to our Western Region Traffic Commisioner who in return had reffered our concerns up the chain of command to Leeds.

There has been a very fast gathering realisation that a large number of VOSA traffic officers have given verbally and in emails responses regards what a DPV actually is in reality and in doing so ignoring the 2040kg unladened weight rule that applies, but in stead taking the view that if it is a 4x4 and has more than one passenger seat its considered a DPV - this is not the case as all DPV's have to weigh no more than 2040kg

That said, there is a distinct possibility that given the confusion and the previously wrongly advise communications from VOSA officers, that the period of grace will be extended for those who own what might seem to be a DPV who have been told wrongly that there vehicle is a DPV when it weighs more than 2040kg - THIS WILL NOT REPLACE THE PERIOD OF GRACE FOR THOSE NON 4X4 VEHICLES TOWING A TRAILER WHICH WILL FINISH AS OF 4TH JUNE 2012.

That said, it is very clear that if your vehicle is being used for "HIRE OR REWARD" it WILL NEED AN O-LICENCE unless you are carrying your own goods (whether those goods are being used by a third party at the other end is not the point, unlike a vehicle over 3500kg without a trailer ie a 4600kg or 7500kg vehicle where a restricted OL will still apply if those goods are being used by a third party).

So there you have it, OL or Defender 90/110 (if you want to pull a 3500kg trailer coz the're the only 4X4 that weigh less than 2040kg).

29th May 2012 11:17 pm

Frapp

Member Since: 19 Dec 2008
Location: Norff Zummerzet
Posts: 1655

2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Landmark LE Auto Indus Silver

Keep up the good work Charactum

Am I right in assuming that someone from vosa or some other transport department has dropped a big one regarding this 2040kg limit ?

My thoughts are that this weight limit was meant to be aimed at a certain area of traders using other than Land Rover products. Now I'm not sure which vehicles vosa had in mind when they dreamt this new law up, but surely the heavier the towing vehicle is, the safer it is or is that calculation now obsolete.

The caravan club recommend a percentage, which I can't remember what it is, but it's high, regarding kerbweights and trailer weights and it seems to me that 2040kg dragging 3500kg is well off the scale of sanity.

Frapp Member of the carrot crank club

Embarrassingly in for the 2nd round, bought another two

D3 Jack Russell carrier
D4 Landmark for towing duties

30th May 2012 9:10 am

B16 KJR

Member Since: 10 Jul 2006
Location: Rosyth, Fife
Posts: 3005

The CC recommended figure is that the caravan should weigh no more than 85% of the weight of the car

30th May 2012 12:11 pm

hensoni

Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576

Quote:
Now I'm not sure which vehicles vosa had in mind when they dreamt this new law up

It's not new, that's the point. Vehicles of all sizes have got much heavier since the law was written. Have you checked the regulations regarding your local council car park? There is a VERY good chance that your D3 is not allowed to park there because of it's weight. I couldn't even park my Audi A4 in my local car parks if the by-laws were to be followed. Club missing my D3

30th May 2012 7:46 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781

thats right, Construction & Use Reg 1986 (which gives the definition of a DPV) has been changed countless times however the issue of the 2040kg rule dates back to 1976 in previous legislation when it was absorbed in to current law

Waiting in anticipation for the formal reply from Senior Policy Unit bod of Traffic Comissioners Office for England & Wales, Leeds which no doubt will confirm the view that anything over 2040kg, 4X4 will need an OL unless you are carrying yer own goods (even if there is a reward for the use of them directly/or indirectly at the other end)

30th May 2012 10:03 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781

Frapp wrote:
Keep up the good work Charactum

Am I right in assuming that someone from vosa or some other transport department has dropped a big one regarding this 2040kg limit ?

My thoughts are that this weight limit was meant to be aimed at a certain area of traders using other than Land Rover products. Now I'm not sure which vehicles vosa had in mind when they dreamt this new law up, but surely the heavier the towing vehicle is, the safer it is or is that calculation now obsolete.
Frapp

The answer would appear to be one of a "policy decision" by individual VOSA officers on the front line not to fully implement the full definition of DPV which of course will involve policing 4x4 pulling a horse box on its way to an event/trial where there may be prize money or money exhanged for the transport of someone else's pony to the same event (OL required) or participating in a motorsport event where there may be money given for attending the start line, finishing position in the race as in stock car racing (OL required) and god knows how many social/hobby events where there is even the smallest of financial reward given for you to turn up towing yer trailer behind a 4X4 which has a kerb weight of more than 2040kg

Good luck to VOSA on that one and thankyou Brussels for the clear and unambiguious way in which the UK are implementing the changes

30th May 2012 10:13 pm

Justme

Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 GS Manual Unknown Colour

hensoni wrote:

A competitor climbing wall company based in Staffordshire were stopped by Avon and Somerset Police as one of their employees was towing their wall with a company 4x4 without a tachograph. Charges were pressed and the employee was hauled up in front of a County Judge in North Somerset. His employer employed a barister to fight the case on behalf of the employee (and the company).

The judgement earlier this week was that a tachograph was not required - but only because of an exemption relating to the trailer as it was argued that the climbing wall is primarily used as an educational aid when stationary (the same exemption as playbuses). I'm trying to get hold of the transcript to find out what arguments were made about DPVs as I suspect their employee was clearly towing for "hire or reward."

As it happens, the case is favourable towards my particular situation so I'm happy! The court details now form an integral part of my trailer paperwork.

I dont suppose that you are still an active member?

I also tow a climbing wall & want as solid a defence ready as possible just in case I get stopped.

I could do with a copy of that judgement or a link / more details so that I can find it online.

cheers

9th Aug 2015 7:33 pm