Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
Oil Dilution due to Partial DPF Regeneration Cycles
I drive a Discovery Sport these days. Please don't laugh. It's a terrible car, I know, and I should have upgraded to a D4 instead of buying this heap of junk.
The issue of Oil Dilution has come-up over on the Disco Sport Forum recently and something I have raised with my dealer. If you now drive any of the current LR range (including the "All New Discovery" but excluding the D4) I suggest you read on, since this is a problem which you may eventually encounter as well.
The service intervals on my Discovery Sport are supposed to be every 21,000 miles or every 2 years according to the handbook/marketing blurb. The car is now 10 months old and has now covered 15,300 miles and is telling me a service is required in 600 miles. This is because my Discovery Sport is suffering from something called "Oil Dilution" where the amount of Fuel in Oil (FIO) has reached a percentage (of at least 6.1%, I believe) where the car's oil quality monitoring believes the oil has degraded sufficiently to require a service, causing the "Service Required" message to appear on the dash. The cause of this Oil Dilution is an increased post-injection requirement and a higher than expected interrupted DPF regeneration cycles. My driving style is obviously to blame because the journeys I make in my car don't allow the DPF to perform complete regeneration cycles. My commute is 40 miles each way, mostly at motorway speeds, which I do at least 3 days a week.
Bear with...
Anyway, I've booked my car in to Lancaster Land Rover in Reading and I'm hoping that they will perform the oil and filter change free of charge, in accordance with the JLR Service Compliance Notification (JLRP00100). I have a JLR service plan on the car but, interestingly, the service plan does NOT cover interim oil changes, if you read the small print carefully.
According to the JLR Service Compliance Notification, this also seems to be a problem that affects almost the entire current range (so, NOT the D4 as far as I'm aware), but includes the "All New Discovery" with the 3.0L diesel engine.
I'm concerned that that the dilution of the engine oil will eventually cause premature engine wear. I plan to take a sample of the current engine oil before it goes in for a service and have it tested by a reputable company. This should provide me with sufficient evidence further down the line when LR try to blame my driving style for too many interrupted DPF regeneration cycles. My view is that this is a Land Rover design fault since it would appear that none of the current Ingenium-engined Jaguar range suffer from the same (the architecture of the engine mounting is slightly different, as I understand it).
I want to reject the car for various other reasons (woeful automatic gearbox software, various rattles and creaks, flawed start/stop logic, etc...); I'm hoping this latest issue will provide me with more weight to do so.
My view is that JLR don't have a long-term solution for this problem. The goodwill oil and filter changes are only good up to 50,000 miles. After that, the customer is on their own. The pricing of interim oil changes varies from dealer to dealer and seems to be depend on where your dealer is located (JLR had not anticipated that interim oil changes would be required hence there is no pricing for it).
Am I overreacting to this issue? Dilution of engine oil sounds like a very serious problem to me and will almost certainly cause premature engine wear if not dealt with properly. I feel I've been miss-sold the car based on the extended service intervals (which will never materialise due to the fact my driving style doesn't allow for complete DPF regeneration cycles. After 50,000 miles (if the car ever makes it to that mileage) I will have to pay for these interim oil changes myself. Something I'm not willing to entertain, quite frankly.
Thoughts please.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
I've heard of this issue since we were building Freelander 2. It can be caused by excessive idling of the car as well.1972 Range Rover Classic 2 door V8
2013 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE - SCRAPPED
2016 Land Rover Discovery 4 Landmark
2022 Volvo XC40 T5 PHEV 282HP FWD 3 cylinder!
11th Aug 2017 7:02 am
dgardel
Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025
Is a problem also for the others car builder...
Same problem on FIAT, BMW, Mercedes, Audi...
Only few models with DPF seem "fairly" immune to this problem, and one of them is Discovery 4 and the Ford 1.5l TDCi for example.....Discovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition IID Pro MV License
11th Aug 2017 7:15 am
M3DPO
Member Since: 22 Sep 2010
Location: Notts.
Posts: 8243
Can't see a problem as any experienced motor mechanic/engineer will recomend the benefit of changing engine oil at 10k miles or less regardless of what manufacturers recommend, some on here recomend and carry it out at less milage.
I have known owners who out of ignorance have not changed engine oil or filter in a vehicle for 80k miles and have only topped the oil up when the oil light came on and these engines have continued to do over 150k miles before being sold on, not LR's I hasten to add.
JLR seem to be in a world of their own when it comes to oil changes, they have been getting away with exaggerated milage recommendations for a long time, I don't see them changing now and offering any recompense.It can when others can't,
It will when others won't,
It goes where others don't.
11th Aug 2017 7:37 am
Woolmeister
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
TigerRecovery wrote:
I've heard of this issue since we were building Freelander 2. It can be caused by excessive idling of the car as well.
Well this would be as a result of the Start/Stop logic being flawed on the Discovery Sport Automatic. Start/Stop only works properly if you engage Park when stopped, rather than simply applying the parking brake in Drive, ready to pull away with the auto parking brake release.
Some Disco Sport Forum members have now started having their oil analysed by Millers Oils. I don't know if these values are high, but the amount of iron, silicon, copper, and aluminium in the oil samples tested seems to be increasing at an alarming rate.
A Discovery Sport that had covered only 5,677 miles already had what Millers describe as "Critical Fuel Dilution". Considering that the next scheduled service is not for another 15k miles, that's quite worrying.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
11th Aug 2017 7:38 am
Woolmeister
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
M3DPO wrote:
Can't see a problem as any experienced motor mechanic/engineer will recomend the benefit of changing engine oil at 10k miles or less regardless of what manufacturers recommend, some on here recomend and carry it out at less milage.
Indeed. I used to change the oil and filter on my old D3 every 7,500 miles. Increasingly long service intervals make no sense.
M3DPO wrote:
I have known owners who out of ignorance have not changed engine oil or filter in a vehicle for 80k miles and have only topped the oil up when the oil light came on and these engines have continued to do over 150k miles before being sold on, not LR's I hasten to add.
JLR seem to be in a world of their own when it comes to oil changes, they have been getting away with exaggerated milage recommendations for a long time, I don't see them changing now and offering any recompense.
My primary issue with this is that JLR continues to blame owners "driving style" for the failure of complete DPF regenerations instead of admitting that it's a design fault. Other car manufacturers have figured out ways to get the DPF to regenerate without running the engine at 2,500rpm for 20 minutes. This seems an incredibly primitive way of getting the DPF to regenerate.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
11th Aug 2017 7:43 am
dgardel
Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025
By the way on my D4 I change the oil every 10000km (7500mls). Also on my Defender 2.4 PumaDiscovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition IID Pro MV License
11th Aug 2017 7:57 am
lynalldiscovery
Member Since: 22 Dec 2009
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 7274
Woolmeister wrote:
M3DPO wrote:
Can't see a problem as any experienced motor mechanic/engineer will recomend the benefit of changing engine oil at 10k miles or less regardless of what manufacturers recommend, some on here recomend and carry it out at less milage.
Indeed. I used to change the oil and filter on my old D3 every 7,500 miles. Increasingly long service intervals make no sense.
M3DPO wrote:
I have known owners who out of ignorance have not changed engine oil or filter in a vehicle for 80k miles and have only topped the oil up when the oil light came on and these engines have continued to do over 150k miles before being sold on, not LR's I hasten to add.
JLR seem to be in a world of their own when it comes to oil changes, they have been getting away with exaggerated milage recommendations for a long time, I don't see them changing now and offering any recompense.
My primary issue with this is that JLR continues to blame owners "driving style" for the failure of complete DPF regenerations instead of admitting that it's a design fault. Other car manufacturers have figured out ways to get the DPF to regenerate without running the engine at 2,500rpm for 20 minutes. This seems an incredibly primitive way of getting the DPF to regenerate.
Steve
Any diesel worked hard wont need to regen as it will self clean during normal operation, but as most people drive like pussies trying to get max mpg they actually cause their own issues and really should have bought a petrol model.
How are the other car makers doing what you say jlr cannot?
11th Aug 2017 1:14 pm
dgardel
Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025
I agree with you, jlr is doing the things of others and certainly not worse!!!Discovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition IID Pro MV License
11th Aug 2017 2:25 pm
Woolmeister
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
Yeah, Land Rover are trying to blame my driving style as well.
Rather than addressing the root cause of this problem ("hardware and architecture" differences which make the DS dilute the oil with unburnt diesel "at a much faster rate" than other models in the Jaguar range - their own words) Land Rover needs to stop blaming "driving style" since this is something that is very much out of my control.
I do > 15k miles per year, most of which is up and down the M3 at 70mph for ~30 minutes every day. My car is an automatic. The car decides at what revs and in which gear it drives. If the DPF is incapable of regenerating itself in that time and under those conditions then this is not my problem. If I used my car to nip down to Waitrose a couple of times a week, not reaching normal operating temperature, and rarely exceeding 30mph, then I could appreciate what they are saying.
My car has covered less than 75% of its first service interval and already my oil is diluted at a rate of > 6.1%. And Land Rover say this is down to my driving style.
This will almost certainly be my last Land Rover.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
11th Aug 2017 2:40 pm
Red Merle
Member Since: 30 Aug 2014
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 7441
Some very interesting and valid points and thank you for reminding me to ignore the comedy oil change intervals on my new car!
It slightly fell apart with the final "this will almost certainly be my last LR" line; when you find a manufacturer that's scrupulously honest with their oil change intervals, please let me know!2011 - 2015: 3 x FL2
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11th Aug 2017 4:43 pm
gje
Member Since: 09 Mar 2014
Location: world
Posts: 488
Quote:
My car is an automatic. The car decides at what revs and in which gear it drives.
but you can of course 'override' that by manual selection can you not?
Driving at a steady speed causes the car to cool down. The drive cycle is optimised for regeneration to occur for the majority of users. Some people have more varied cycles than others and they don't have the issue.
I'm sorry if you feel hard done by Land Rover, but we're not the only manufacturer who has this issue and some regeneration cycles are much more intrusive.1972 Range Rover Classic 2 door V8
2013 Land Rover Discovery 4 HSE - SCRAPPED
2016 Land Rover Discovery 4 Landmark
2022 Volvo XC40 T5 PHEV 282HP FWD 3 cylinder!
11th Aug 2017 7:29 pm
Sil0212
Member Since: 29 Sep 2017
Location: Nuneaton
Posts: 1
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
Indeed. This is one way of trying to get Land Rover to do something about it:
Click image to enlarge
Parked outside a Guy Salmon dealership.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
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and these engines have continued to do over 150k miles before being sold on, not LR's I hasten to add.
