Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
Good explanation, Steve
I know you're a respected Land Rover engineer and have a lot of experience with these cars.
Personally, I think Land Rover deserve all the criticism they get by publishing such extended service intervals (21,000 miles or two years ) in their sales and marketing information. I used to service my own D3 every 7500 miles, for peace of mind more than anything else.
According to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 a product has to be "fit for purpose" and a car that needs to go back to the dealer every 5,000 miles (because that's all these cars are doing before their oil is so badly diluted) to be serviced is not "fit for purpose" in my opinion. A product also has to be "as described" and a car that gets nowhere near close to the service intervals that JLR publish everywhere is "not as described" in my opinion.
It saddens me to see JLR going this way.
It's definitely made me think twice about:
a) Running a modern Land Rover beyond the warranty period
b) Buying a modern used Land Rover from a dealer
Other manufacturers (Volvo, for one) manage to achieve EU6 status without injecting AdBlue into the exhaust of their D5 engine. They just use a catalytic DPF, as far as I'm aware. What's most frustrating about this situation, is that the XE and XF - both of which have the 2.0l diesel Ingenium - don't seem to suffer from the same issues. This is because of architectural differences between the Jags and the Land Rovers and the Jags manage to reach the high temperatures needed to burn-off the particulates in the DPF without as much post-injection fuel. The DPF on a Discovery Sport/Evoque needs regenerating more frequently than earlier Land Rovers. I don't know why this is, but the figure is thought to be as low as every 250 miles.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
30th Sep 2017 10:39 am
SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1146
Whether Adblue is used depends on the NOx values the engine produces. If they can scrape below the limits without, they won't go to the added costs of Adblue/SCR.
Smaller, more efficient engines don't use it because of this.
As for the mileage intervals for service/oil change. I am a firm believer in renewing the oil regularly. In my opinion 15000 miles was pushing it. 21k or 2 years is OK if you keep it for the warranty & trade it in & let someone else have the problem.
Re the Jag. I suspect Landrover are looking closely at the parameters set between the same engines & I would expect software updates to come out to change strategies for the real world situations.
The reasons for more regens are tighter regulations, even some euro 5 vehicles are actually aiming toward euro 6 figures, although classed as Euro 5.
The Euro 6 NOx maximum is 80mg/km, compared to the 180mg/km level that was required for cars that met the previous Euro 5 emissions standard.
You can hop between manufacturers who have developed either a newer engine or uprated the emissions systems, but they will vary, depending who produces what, when.
The problem is with all the manufacturers, it's just how it's dealt with & how old the engine range is.
30th Sep 2017 11:27 am
Disco John
Member Since: 04 Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 5
This discussion also needs to take account of the damaging effect that 'washing' the cylinder walls with diesel on a regular basis has. This can destroy the protective layer of oil and lead to 'polishing' of the walls, after which they are unable to hold the thin layer of oil they need for protection. This could lead to high cylinder wall wear rates in affected engines and consequent early engine failure rates. Changing the oil regularly will not make this better.
4th Oct 2017 10:36 am
dgardel
Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025
Disco John wrote:
This discussion also needs to take account of the damaging effect that 'washing' the cylinder walls with diesel on a regular basis has. This can destroy the protective layer of oil and lead to 'polishing' of the walls, after which they are unable to hold the thin layer of oil they need for protection. This could lead to high cylinder wall wear rates in affected engines and consequent early engine failure rates. Changing the oil regularly will not make this better.
You have pointed out a very underestimated problem
Especially in the "not so skilled tuner" overfuelled mapsDiscovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition IID Pro MV License
4th Oct 2017 10:55 am
ecs0set
Member Since: 25 May 2017
Location: Dorset
Posts: 95
I don't know whether this applies to the Disco but my previous car had a few reports of diesel ending up in the sump due to DPF regen. This then led to a few isolated incidents of diesel runaway where the level gets too high and the engine runs on it's own oil. Scary stuff.
First video on google is a Freelander, however I believe diesel runaway can happen due to other causes?
5th Oct 2017 11:59 am
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1682
On the way back from 200 mile round trip Friday my D4 gave 3 messages within 10 mins.
Service required in 1950 miles
Service required
Service required in 450 miles
In that order . No warnings at all since.
The car was serviced just over 6 months ago and has covered 4650 miles since !
The car was serviced a month early in the first year (as it requested a service) but just by annual date the second year. Driving distance and journeys not changed from one year to the next but may be small variations.
It's going in later this week. They will test the oil and do oil and filter change under warranty if diluted and advised me to come back in x miles if not.
But what happens after warranty is over?
Will report back findings/actionsGary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
4th Dec 2017 1:10 pm
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1682
Car gave me two more messages today. Seems to have gone backwards a bit.
Service required in 1950 miles during an 80 mile run.
And a few hours later on restarting the car
Service required in 1400 miles
Going in ThursdayGary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
5th Dec 2017 5:52 pm
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1682
Ok update as car has been in to the dealers today regarding service rqd messages. They advise oil dilution is ok (currently at 6 (percent??)). Their diagnosis is that service reset was not done (properly). It was serviced at another dealer. That makes sense as mileage would be around 14k now. They tell me I will see a specific message regarding oil quality if an interim changes is required, not just a service message.
I've now used up both local dealers had basic problems with services at both. It just makes you worried about what else has been missed or not done properly. Extremely disappointing for all sorts of reasons.
Will have to weigh up where I take it and go for lesser of two evils.Gary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
7th Dec 2017 1:41 pm
Ceekay
Member Since: 17 May 2009
Location: Bury
Posts: 2089
Worrying especially since swmbo's evoque had non specific service warnings which have now disappeared and the car hasn't quite hit 2000 miles yet D4 HSE Lux MY16 Club Waitomo
D3 HSE MY06 missing her still…
7th Dec 2017 2:40 pm
Woolmeister
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
Gary_P wrote:
Ok update as car has been in to the dealers today regarding service rqd messages. They advise oil dilution is ok (currently at 6 (percent??)). Their diagnosis is that service reset was not done (properly). It was serviced at another dealer. That makes sense as mileage would be around 14k now. They tell me I will see a specific message regarding oil quality if an interim changes is required, not just a service message.
I've now used up both local dealers had basic problems with services at both. It just makes you worried about what else has been missed or not done properly. Extremely disappointing for all sorts of reasons.
Will have to weigh up where I take it and go for lesser of two evils.
Gary,
The only way you can be completely sure what the exact oil dilution percentage is, is to have it tested. The oil dilution percentage of 6% is simply calculated by an algorithm in the car that measures the number of incomplete DPF regeneration cycles. It is NOT monitoring oil quality in any way. All Land Rover have done is connect a diagnostic tool to the car and read the calculated oil dilution percentage from the ECU. They have not analysed your oil in any way. Your actual oil dilution percentage could be higher or lower than 6%.
If you present your Land Rover dealer with evidence that the oil needs changing, then there should be no dispute over it. If your engine goes bang - and you have documented evidence of oil that is out of spec - then you can hold them responsible for that. Simple.
Bear in mind that as much as 2% oil dilution is enough to throw a 0W30 oil out of spec.
With regards Ceekay SWMBO's Evoque, it's not unusual for an Ingenium 2.0d engine to trigger the service warning at such a low mileage; especially if she only uses it for very short journeys where the DPF never has a chance to regenerate properly. My advice to you would also be to get your oil tested for your own peace of mind. If Land Rover refuse you a complimentary oil and filter change, then present them with the oil analysis report from Millers. There should be no disputing it.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
7th Dec 2017 3:33 pm
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 73131
Have i got this right in that it doesn't affect DPFed D4s but does affect RRSs & D5s with basically the same engine?
7th Dec 2017 3:41 pm
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1682
Thanks for the advice Steve. Makes sense, didn't realise they would not be testing oil, but thinking about the analysis equipment that would be required it isn't surprising. Sounds as though this is something we should all be making more use of. What about their advice that I would be seeing an oil specific service message if the car thought the oil was too diluted? Is that correct?
DSL, my car is a 2016MY D4, which of course has a DPF. I too had heard the D4 seemed immune from this, and I obviously have no evidence that it is my oil causing this service message. The dealer has told me I would be seeing an oil service message if this was the case and I have not, only standard 'service required' message. I have had early service required messages before (at 9000miles), so if it isn't the oil (because it's not giving me a oil service required message) then not sure what would be causing it to give this message so early?
Need to know if oil dilution can cause a standard 'service required' message. Anyone know?Gary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
7th Dec 2017 5:46 pm
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 73131
7th Dec 2017 5:54 pm
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1682
Thinking about what has been advised here, for not more than the price of an oil analysis I could just change my oil and filter. That may be the way to go , although I'd need to buy a vucuum pump, but would have that for future interim changes (which, from reading this forum, might be plentiful as I intend to hang on to the car for some years ).
Just a reminder on my remaining question, does anyone know if there is a specific oil service warning message or if the oil dilution issue will cause a normal service required message?
Would appreciate advice.Gary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
8th Dec 2017 2:40 pm
stick
Member Since: 13 Jan 2010
Location: hants
Posts: 604
Not quite on topic, but actually Gary_P is onto something.
I can't convince myself to like the D5 so am thinking to keep my 2015 D4 longer then I expected (last one changed at 110,000 miles). Had a chat with local independent about it. His view was no problem at all so long as I ignored the service intervals and changed engine oil every 8k, and transmission and diff fluids at 80,000.
Even more off topic, his view was that the rotation of shells causing engine failure would not happen if oil changed every 8k.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
) in their sales and marketing information. I used to service my own D3 every 7500 miles, for peace of mind more than anything else.
