Member Since: 04 Aug 2015
Location: Internet
Posts: 270
DPF are the reason I bought a D3 in 2011 and vowed never ever to buy anything with a DPF in it again. Happy motoring since.
29th Sep 2017 3:42 pm
lynalldiscovery
Member Since: 22 Dec 2009
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 7274
Woolmeister wrote:
Indeed. This is one way of trying to get Land Rover to do something about it:
Click image to enlarge
Parked outside a Guy Salmon dealership.
Steve
Cant see the issue I service my cars every 5k anyway
29th Sep 2017 4:08 pm
stick
Member Since: 13 Jan 2010
Location: hants
Posts: 604
I find this all a bit shocking, and rather short-sighted on the part of JLR. I remember when M-Benz got in the hands of the accountants in late 90's and started using poorer quality steel and relying on the fact that there was no hole when it rusted. It took 5+ years of bending over backwards to customers to restore their reputation.
For JLR to rely on "driving style" as a get-out for services every 5k strikes me as a very similar failure to face up to the problem. Short term it gets them out of expense, but in the medium term...d4 HSE
29th Sep 2017 4:42 pm
Woolmeister
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
Not only are Jaguar Land Rover providing misleading information in their sales and marketing material by stating:
Jaguar Land Rover wrote:
Not only are the new Ingenium engines substantially lighter, more fuel-efficient and more refined than predecessors, they are also more affordable and convenient to own thanks to servicing intervals extended from 16,000 to 21,000 miles/two years.
But they also appear to be attempting to sweep the matter under the carpet.
A friend of mine who owns a 17MY Evoque went to her local dealer (Hunters in Southampton) because her car was telling her it needed servicing. Hunters very kindly reset the service indicator for her.
What they should have done - as per the flowchart detailed in JLRP00100 - was read the oil percentage dilution value using SDD and, if it is greater than 7%, perform an oil and filter change free of charge.
Most of us on here know that 21,000 mile service intervals are completely unrealistic and we service our cars far more frequently than this. But there are punters out there who have been mis-sold JLR vehicles on this basis.
The issue is detailed by Land Rover's own admission:
Jaguar Land Rover wrote:
Due to hardware and architectural differences between model lines, the amount of post-injection required to achieve a similar burn rate is much higher on 3.0L diesel Range Rover / Range Rover Sport / All New Discovery and 2.0L diesel Evoque / Discovery Sport in comparison to 2.0L diesel XE / XF.
What's even more disturbing about this is that customers who bought affected vehicles - with a warranty start date of after 1st June 2017 - are on their own and have to fund oil change services themselves, even though Land Rover are fully aware of this problem.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
29th Sep 2017 4:56 pm
Brian_DL13
Member Since: 25 Aug 2013
Location: Teesdale
Posts: 1418
What makes you think this is DPF related, rather than higher AdBlue concentration ?
29th Sep 2017 6:47 pm
Moo D3 Decade
Member Since: 13 Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 14482
Why are you surprised. This is LR's usual response to anything....
D4 HSE EU6 (Known as Jeeves)
New Defender L663 110 SE (known as Noddy!) Sold
Sold Volvo XC90 R-Design (known as Basil)
Sold - D4 HSE (Known as Gerty)
No longer the Old Buses original owner
231,000 miles and counting
05 S manual owned from March 2005
D4 Face lifted
Still original injectors and turbo
V8 Front brakes
BAS Remap, Allisport Intercooler and deCat
EGRs blanked
T-Max split charge
Hanibal Expeedition rack
Prospeed ladder
Duratrac tyres
IID BT
BAS FBH control
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
29th Sep 2017 7:02 pm
lespes
Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: Sitting Down
Posts: 2232
I know it sates D4 not affected but does it have the capacity to measure oil dilution
If the RRS 3L engine affected seems unlikely D4 not. Wondering if D4 just lacks the capacity to measure oil dilution, which might explain the catastrophic engine failures some are experiencing, as oil dilution is happening but not being notified with an early service warning.D4 Landmark MY16 Santorini Black THE LAST
D4 HSE MY12 Marmais Teal: Gone. Missed a lot!
Freelander 2 SD HSE MY11 Silver:Thankfully gone.
D4 HSE MY11 Silver: Gone missed !
Range Rover Sport MY06 HSE Buck Blue: Gone missed!
Discovery D2 TD5 Facelift MY Red Gone Missed!
Discovery D2 TD5 Cobalt Blue: Gone Missed!
Discovery D1 Auto Oxford Blue Not missed at all!
Discovery D1 Avalon Blue First LR! missed!
Stand to be corrected but as I understand it the D4 does have the Oil Service warning so it can measure the oil concentration, as well as the Service Indicator, but in either of the D4’s I had I never had the Oil Service warning come up, unlike the FL2 that I had.
29th Sep 2017 7:27 pm
Woolmeister
Member Since: 26 Mar 2007
Location: Chandler's Ford
Posts: 3464
The affected engines don't have the capacity to measure actual oil dilution, no.
They just estimate the dilution percentage based on the total number of incomplete DPF regeneration cycles. It's a fairly crude algorithm and - at best - a guess.
You only way you can accurately measure oil dilution is in a lab. The cars themselves are incapable of measuring this, as far as I know,and the only indication you might see is the oil level rising. Normally, you would check on the dipstick but - on a D4 - I'm guessing the only way you have a checking is electronically. Rest easy, Bruce.
As little as 2% oil dilution is generally considered enough to throw 0W30 oils out of spec.
Steve2021 BMW iX3 Premier Edition in Carbon Black ⚡️🔌
2019 Škoda Kodiaq 2.0 Tdi 190 DSG Sportline in Quartz Grey. Excellent vehicle. Gone.
2017 Discovery Sport HSE Auto in Carpathian Grey and Ebony Leather. Modern JLR Junk. Gone.
2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual in Zermatt Silver with Ebony Cloth (143k) Gone, but now patrolling the Asia section of the West Midlands Safari Park!
29th Sep 2017 7:34 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Yes, the D4 with a DPF does suffer from oil dilution. The oil system monitors the oil level increase and the amount of DPF/aborted DPF cycles completed and can trigger the oil service caption on the dash.
I covered this on the forum a few years back but my concern is that the oil monitoring system has been tuned to the point of almost never triggering the caption.
My recommendation now and then remains to change the oil twice as often as the book recommends. Buy a vacuum pump and get it done.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 03 Mar 2008
Location: Fife
Posts: 6272
I’m on my 9th LR and 7th with a DPF, never encountered this problem before. I do short journeys 4 days a week the rest it gets a good run, always worked for the previous 6.
The D5 is going in next Friday to be looked at, I’m told it will take 2 hours to have whatever it is it needs to have done. It started with the app telling me the car had indicated a service was required. Went into the service menu and the car was saying oil service required in 1700 miles. A week later car no longer requires a service according to the app and oil service required now 4000 miles. It’s happening to owners regardless if they are high or low miler.
I’ve also been told that LR have suspended all fixes until at least November, info from Winger, posted over on the Disco5 forum.23.5MY Defender 90 X-Dynamic SE D250 MHEV Pangea Green
29th Sep 2017 8:00 pm
SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1146
I think it's slightly unfair to blame Landrover for the requirements of a modern emission requirement.
We all want a cleaner environment. Because of this diesel vehicles have to have a particulate trap. (DPF). Due to it's job of storing soot and particulates. It needs to be burnt off at intervals when approaching full. To do this the vehicle has to raise the temperature of the Cat to allow the DPF to burn off.
The vehicle also has to be driven over a certain speed for a period of time to allow this to happen and complete.
Some vehicles, such as Citroen use a very expensive fluid put in another tank, (not adblue, that's something completely different) which is injected into the exhaust to increase temperatures.
This was found to be expensive and complicated, with extra equipment to go wrong.
So manufacturers inc Landrover chose to inject extra fuel as the engine was pushing the exhaust gases out, to make diesel go into the exhaust thus heat the cat and burn off the DPF.
The DPF as a rough rule needs emptying/ regenerating every 400 miles or so.
A lot of the time normal driving can allow a passive regen, which means the car doesn't need to force it into a full blown clear out.
There are times when this is needed and a longer run is required.
Where the problem is occurring is when it tries to regenerate, squirting fuel onto the pistons thus out the exhaust and when it starts this, and is merrily trying to heat things up, the journey ends prematurely without completing the emptying of the DPF.
It remembers and when warm next time tries again, and again etc, until it can complete. This action allows a small amount of diesel to go into the engine oil, due to the cylinder walls, piston rings etc allowing a small amount of diesel to get past and into the sump.
The ecu calculates how many times it has partially completed, and after a certain while, bring the oil service light up.
Whilst this is an annoyance for the owner, it is the downside of reducing the particulates produced by vehicles.
If the car is driven sometimes, and it doesn't need to be every week, at a reasonable speed to allow the temps to be reached and clean out the DPF, then this problem doesn't occur.
So with a slight change in driver habits the problem won't occur.
Or if it's impossible to drive a slightly longer journey sometimes 20 mins when hot), then like most other manufacturers the oil will need changing and it will come a time it will bring a warning light up telling you you need to drive for at least 20 mins to regenerate or face a blocked DPF.
I understand the frustration of something not being as we expect, especially when spending a lot of money on a vehicle.
I think the general problem is lack of education and sometimes a lack of information given.
If the procedure was explained at the dealership and its reasons, you can make an informed choice of if you buy a diesel car. You can buy a petrol car and put up with its increased fuel usage (and higher CO2 output!).
In general the DPF system on most of the Landrovers have very few problems, with quite a low percentage of cars through our workshop needing an oil change early. And even less with DPF system faults. This is in stark contrast to a lot of other manufacturers I have seen in other garages with expensive problems.
At the moment a petrol car doesn't need a particulate filter, thus doesn't suffer from the problems of dilution or needing regeneration.
But, I was at a training course a few weeks ago about new engine technologies and the petrol engine will be fitted with GPF in the near future (gasoline particulate filter), to meet ever increasing demands for less emissions.
I hope this has helped with the reasons behind the DPF. Improvements are being made, as once you had to religiously stick to over 40mph, but that figure is reducing, with some passive regens starting at only 20mph and more tolerant to drops in speed to continue the process.
Regards
Steve
30th Sep 2017 5:31 am
J77
Member Since: 03 Mar 2008
Location: Fife
Posts: 6272
The D5s engine must as soft as s t because my driving habits are the same for all DPF equipped LRs I’ve had. Never experienced any problems, my EU6 D4 ran perfectly between service intervals.
Also I notice in the manual there is a green light that comes on, supposedly, to show when a regen has been completed. Yet haven’t seen anything. How do you know it’s complete?23.5MY Defender 90 X-Dynamic SE D250 MHEV Pangea Green
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
t because my driving habits are the same for all DPF equipped LRs I’ve had. Never experienced any problems, my EU6 D4 ran perfectly between service intervals.
