Member Since: 09 Aug 2013
Location: Warringon
Posts: 349
Automatic transmission fluid from your auto box goes to your torque converter for it to work. Some people add there dr transmission through there gearbox oil cooler pipe I've heard. I put mine in from the filler plug on the gearbox with my engine running. I did 3 oil flushes replacing 3 litres of fluid each time. So I was under my car anyway. I had to have engine running because the filler plug isn't a level plug and fluid comes out of it when engine is switched off.
25th Feb 2016 2:56 am
Dutchrockboy
Member Since: 16 Apr 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 85
What i meant was: the Problem and the judder is probably coming from worn out Torque converter lock-up clutch Plate. See thePicture number 12:
The Lock-up clutch plate is not in the oil. The judder fix only affects the Oil not the clutch plate.
I´ll put it in my best German Englisch:
"Zats vy i dont Ünderstand vy ze Djuda Ficks mey Funksian..."
25th Feb 2016 7:10 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
The lock-up clutch lives in a chamber inside the TC so is bathed in transmission fluid. When the fluid pressure in the chamber on the piston side of the clutch equals that of the turbine side the transmission is unlocked.
The reversal of fluid pressure reduces the oil pressure held on the piston side relative to the clutch side and the clutch plate presses against the inside of the TC casing. The friction then increases until the TC case and clutch plate are mechanically locked together. If either the oil or friction plates are tired then this lock-up process is not smooth or complete and the assembly kicks back against the damper springs before trying to lock again. You feel this as 'judder' and the difference between the damper spring assembly in the diesel gearbox and the petrol version is why the effect is so pronounced on diesel D3s.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 23 Jul 2011
Location: County Antrim
Posts: 3345
For anyone that's interested in how they work.
Last edited by MarkOne on 25th Feb 2016 9:14 pm. Edited 1 time in total
25th Feb 2016 8:19 am
Dutchrockboy
Member Since: 16 Apr 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 85
Robbie wrote:
The lock-up clutch lives in a chamber inside the TC so is bathed in transmission fluid. When the fluid pressure in the chamber on the piston side of the clutch equals that of the turbine side the transmission is unlocked.
The reversal of fluid pressure reduces the oil pressure held on the piston side relative to the clutch side and the clutch plate presses against the inside of the TC casing. The friction then increases until the TC case and clutch plate are mechanically locked together. If either the oil or friction plates are tired then this lock-up process is not smooth or complete and the assembly kicks back against the damper springs before trying to lock again. You feel this as 'judder' and the difference between the damper spring assembly in the diesel gearbox and the petrol version is why the effect is so pronounced on diesel D3s.
This is my problem, now i understand. Thanx Robbie
25th Feb 2016 1:55 pm
Dutchrockboy
Member Since: 16 Apr 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 85
So....
i put 1 tube Dr. Tranny in the Transmission.
immediate effect....
... no more problems for now. No more Shuddering
I hope it gives me an extra 25 tKm.
Thanx Guys
27th Feb 2016 4:58 pm
Barn1e D3 Decade
Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Mid-sussex
Posts: 2021
If the TC is normally the cause of the judder, what are the symptoms of what I understand are the solenoids in the autobox. I am just wondering what a full autobox overhaul cures.2005, TDV6 S, Auto, 190k miles, owned from new, V8 Brake Upgrade, Nancom Evo, RLD protector, BAS EGR blanking & Remap, separate ATF cooler, changing all the fluids ahead of time.
....Does anyone on here have experience of the Dr Tranny working for a long time or does it break down resulting in a top up being needed?
....the Indie who rebuilt my transmission told me that Dr Tranny has a varied effect ... it does depend on the damage / wear / issues that are in the gearbox...caused by no frequent transmission oil changes.
whatever it does it cant put metal back on
In their experience.....it depends......they see & deal with a lot
I opted to have my transmission rebuilt...it had Dr Tranny added alsoBREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
Last edited by BLFarrar on 28th Feb 2016 10:48 am. Edited 1 time in total
27th Feb 2016 6:56 pm
Barn1e D3 Decade
Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Mid-sussex
Posts: 2021
Having watched the video again I think I understand the TC better. But judder would be expected in top gear when the friction plate is locking both parts of TC together. However some have had judder before the gearbox is in top gear so presumably that could be caused by some issue in the megatonic unit that controls the ATF flow. Or does the friction plate also lock the TC in other gears at certain speeds/revs/torque.
I am interested in understanding when a TC replacement is enough and when full Autobox refurb required2005, TDV6 S, Auto, 190k miles, owned from new, V8 Brake Upgrade, Nancom Evo, RLD protector, BAS EGR blanking & Remap, separate ATF cooler, changing all the fluids ahead of time.
28th Feb 2016 9:56 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
The video above only really covers the basic transmission modes, rather than the regulated TC in the ZF6. The ZF6 and above can achieve lock-up in any forward gear, depending on conditions / software etc.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Mid-sussex
Posts: 2021
Thanks Robbie. That now makes sense. So you could have a situation where the lockup was not effective and the cause could be either the friction surfaces on the lockup plate , or something in the autobox that is not controlling the fluid correctly to force the lockup.
So until you open up the autobox you may not really know the cause.2005, TDV6 S, Auto, 190k miles, owned from new, V8 Brake Upgrade, Nancom Evo, RLD protector, BAS EGR blanking & Remap, separate ATF cooler, changing all the fluids ahead of time.
28th Feb 2016 11:03 am
Dutchrockboy
Member Since: 16 Apr 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 85
Hi Barnie,
The thing is that it is easier to reproduce the symptom in 6th. And it is more noticable.
I had the shudder in different gears. It appeared wenn the Clutch was regulated and trying to close.
Please picture the David Attenborough Narration Voice or you may also choose a funny french accent while i explain this. "Listen very carefully, i shall only say this once ..." or in other words:" I would like, if I may, to take you on a strange journey." ....
The problem is not so bad, not like "My vheels! My god, I can't move my vheels!" or something, but my SWMBO asked if the Vibrating in the Diva is Normal.
I thought she had a bit of a mind Flip and that is was her Woman-Driving-skills. But then i drove and i thought there must be some kind of audio-vibratory-physio-molecular transport device built in the Diva.
I told my SWMBO to shift it! She said" How forceful you are, Dutch. Such a perfect specimen of manhood. So... dominant". It worked for short while but now i want to remove the cause, not the symptom. So i said to my SWMBO:"Well, babies, don't you panic!/ By the light of the night,/ It'll all seem all right!/ I'll get you a satanic mechanic!"
I realised, the conversion had almost taken place completely. I, as a normal Human Being had been changed into a mechanic by Landrover. I tried to analyse the Automatic Gearbox problem we had using the IDDTool .
In the next picture you see the car in 3th gear (green line). While the car is accelerating in 3th you see that the output shaft speed is not smoothly increasing. It seems to shiver. This is the shuddering you feel. We can see that the Torque converter is regulated.
Click image to enlarge
Now in this picture you see the solenoid pressure. We can see that the pressure is also "vibrating". This is a symptome, not a cause.
Click image to enlarge
Now in the following picture we can see the car driving at a given speed in 4th gear. The Torque converter is regulated and we can see the RPM´s going nuts whilst driving at the given speed, not changing the speed. Then the driver decides to shift in third and the torque converter closes. We now can see that the RPM´s of the engine are locked to the RPM´s of the outputshaft.
Click image to enlarge
So what did we learn today?
The Torque converter gives the Díva some bad vibrations.
The SWMBO only loves good vibrations.
I realy love my IDDTool, my SWMBO and the Diva.
Both the Diva and the SWMBO realy know how to burn my money....
The SWMBO goes like this : "Oh, come on Dutch, admit it, you like the Diva, don´t you? There's no crime in giving yourself over to pleasure. Oh, Dutch, you've wasted so much money already. nobody need s to know - I won't tell them!"
Dutch thinking: "I've got to get out of this trap! Before this... decadence... saps my will. I've got to be strong, und try to... hang on! Or else, my mind may well *snap*! Und my life... will be lived..."
My SHMBO says: "I ask for nothing...."
I reply:" And you shall receive it...."
So, now i am going to give myself over to absolute pleasure. I´ll Swim the warm waters of sins of the flesh - erotic nightmares beyond any measure, and sensual daydreams to treasure forever. Can't you just see it? Don't dream it, be it.
2nd Mar 2016 3:44 pm
Barn1e D3 Decade
Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Mid-sussex
Posts: 2021
Hi Dutchrockboy
I am not sure I fully understood the diagrams and explanation. Are you saying that a fault code (such as 2730 Pressure Control Solenoid E - Circuit High) that states that a solenoid has an issue, is a consequence of an issue with the Torque Converter and not the solenoid. And that judder is always down to the Torque Converter and not an issue elsewhere in the Mechatronics / autobox?
If so, what is it in the diagrams that confirms the TC as cause and not the solenoid?
Many thanks2005, TDV6 S, Auto, 190k miles, owned from new, V8 Brake Upgrade, Nancom Evo, RLD protector, BAS EGR blanking & Remap, separate ATF cooler, changing all the fluids ahead of time.
2nd Mar 2016 7:33 pm
Dutchrockboy
Member Since: 16 Apr 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 85
Hi Barnie,
My Diva didn´t have Faultcodes in the solenoids.
If you have repeating faultcodes in the solenoid, there might be a problem on the solenoid.
So why is my problem the TC, and not the solenoid? The shudder is in almost every gear.
If its the solenoid it would be only in the gears that are shifted by the solenoid. And you might notice shifting problems.
What i stated is that the solenoids will be exposed to fluctuating pressure due to the clutch shudder. I don´t know if they wear of faster due to this pressure shudder.
IMHO this might cause a solenoid Problem or could cause a solenoid fault message. BUT i do not know this for sure.
IMHO a solenoid can´t cause a shudder unless the solenoid is tacting (on/off/on/off). But as ithink of it, the solenoid do the shifting. A tacting solenoid would change gear 3th/4th/3th/4th/3th/4th or so. This would not cause the shudder.
Regard from a crazy Dutchman...
2nd Mar 2016 8:15 pm
Bantie
Member Since: 08 Sep 2010
Location: Belfast
Posts: 21
Just a note on my experiences with the shudder problem.
My discovery has covered 224500 miles trouble free except for the shudder which first appeared about 18 mts ago. A gearbox flush and filter cured this for about 6 months then it returned. We then flushed the gearbox and added one tube of dr tranny. This did not work and the shudder persisted. I had planned on getting a recon gearbox from land rover but after browsing these forums and the dr tranny website I decided it was worth trying again - following advice from here and Lubgard.
So last weekend we drained the oil and replaced with Land Rover ATF and added 2 tubes of Dr Tranny plus one small bottle of Lubgard Automatic Transmission ATF Fluid Protectant Red Bottle.
The results were instant. No more shudder. I did not expect much but I've done over 300 miles since and no shudder, slippage or revs fluctuating. My discovery will get a replacement gearbox if this returns soon. However if it lasts 6 months I'd try the same thing again as it is a cheap and easy fix. I will keep a record of how it lasts.
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....
: "Oh, come on Dutch, admit it, you like the Diva, don´t you? There's no crime in giving yourself over to pleasure. Oh, Dutch, you've wasted so much money already. nobody need s to know - I won't tell them!" 
"I've got to get out of this trap! Before this... decadence... saps my will. I've got to be strong, und try to... hang on! Or else, my mind may well *snap*! Und my life... will be lived..."
