Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Thanks Dave, as it looks like the plumbing was revised for MY13. I wonder what the changes achieve.
Edit: The changes are not for MY13, they are part of the Timed Climate package that is standard on the HSE and HSE Lux. This package (additional plumbing, heater matrix priority valve for more rapid cabin heating and the touchscreen software) is available as a £700 option on the XS.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Last edited by Robbie on 10th Mar 2013 4:33 pm. Edited 1 time in total
25th Feb 2013 7:03 pm
DaveC
Member Since: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Wirral
Posts: 1034
just to add to this thread I had my 3 year service yesterday and as teh FBH has been hit and miss all winter with teh low batt message i asked them to look at it to ensure any issues with battery would be covered under warranty.
when i picked car up they said they had looked at FBH and want to repalce it I said surely it was just a case of the battery not holding charge and so test abttery, if dud repalce but they were insistant that the FBH should be replaced.
the FBH works fine as i've done the above tests and sat in the whilst it fires up but after about 2mins it beeps and the low batt message appears.
I'm tempted just to let them replace the bloody FBH but seems ike a waste of time and money!XC90 T8 R Design Pro
MY14 D4 HSE Lux (sadly gone)
Mariana Black with Ivory interior and lots of toys!
26th Feb 2013 11:20 am
cold_n_wet
Member Since: 05 May 2009
Location: Bergen
Posts: 1509
Ask them if you can keep the old one as a keepsakeIDTOOL PRO / Faultmate programing and BAS remaping services in Norway.
Diagnostic for most Land rover vehicles
Land Rover parts and accessories.
Stockist of RLD equipment.
www.praesto4x4.no
D4 gone, missed but replaced with a 110 Puma.
26th Feb 2013 2:01 pm
DaveC
Member Since: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Wirral
Posts: 1034
^ XC90 T8 R Design Pro
MY14 D4 HSE Lux (sadly gone)
Mariana Black with Ivory interior and lots of toys!
26th Feb 2013 3:53 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
ToPIX wrote:
TECHNICAL BULLETIN
LTB00527
20 FEB 2013
SECTION: 412-00
Fuel Fired Booster Heater (FFBH) Cycle Time Improvement
Range Rover (LM)
Model Year:
2011-2012
VIN:BA325708-CA393639
Range Rover Sport (LS)
Model Year:
2011-2013
VIN:
BA262776 Onwards
MARKETS:
All Except Russia
CONDITION SUMMARY:
Situation:
The customer may report that the vehicle interior is not sufficiently warm following operation of the Fuel Fired Booster Heater (FFBH).
Cause: Battery management strategy limits power supply and FFBH cycle time. Suggested Customer Concern Code - C03.
Action: Should a customer express concern, follow the Service Instruction outlined below. This will increase the FFBH cycle time by approximately 20% to improve the vehicle interior temperature.
PARTS:
LR033179
Range Rover Sport and Discovery 4/LR4 - AGM battery 850Amp 90AH
Quantity: 1
LR032525
Range Rover - AGM battery 850Amp 95AH
Quantity: 1
LR048602
Rover Sport and Discovery 4/LR4 R.H.D - Battery Monitoring System Cable
Quantity: 1
LR048601
Rover Sport and Discovery 4/LR4 L.H.D- Battery Monitoring System Cable.
Quantity: 1
LR048604
Range Rover - Battery Monitoring System Cable
Quantity: 1
TOOLS:
No Tools Required
WARRANTY:
NOTE: Repair procedures are under constant review, and therefore times are subject to change; those quoted here must be taken as guidance only. Always refer to TOPIx to obtain the latest repair time.
NOTE: DDW requires the use of causal part numbers. Labor only claims must show the causal part number with a quantity of zero.
DESCRIPTION
SRO
TIME (HOURS)
CONDITION CODE
CAUSAL PART
Range Rover Sport and Discovery 4/LR4 - Configuration - Auxiliary heater control module
80.90.13
0.2
42
LR021632
Range Rover - Configuration - Heating ventilation and air conditioning control module
80.90.12
0.2
42
LR028524
Replace the Battery Monitoring System Including BMS reset
86.15.13.03
0.1
42
LR037872
Range Rover Sport and Discovery 4/LR4 Replace Battery Including BMS reset
86.15.01.03
0.2
42
LR018609
Range Rover 4.4L TDV8 Replace Battery Including BMS reset
86.15.01.03
0.4
42
LR030213
Range Rover 5.0L AJV8 Replace Battery Including BMS reset
86.15.01.03
0.5
42
LR032260
NOTE: Normal Warranty policies and procedures apply.
SERVICE INSTRUCTION:
1. CAUTION: This procedure requires SDD DVD133.01 and Calibration File 127 loaded or later.
Connect the Land Rover approved battery conditioner/power supply.
2. Replace the Battery Monitoring System (see TOPIx Workshop Manual, Section 414-01).
3. If an Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) battery is already fitted check the battery condition status using the Midtronics EXP 1080 tester and replace battery if necessary (see TOPIx Workshop Manual, Section 414-01).
4. If a flooded type battery is currently fitted to the vehicle replace it with an AGM battery (see TOPIx Workshop Manual, Section 414-01).
5. Connect SDD to the vehicle and begin a new diagnostic session, by reading the VIN for the current vehicle and initiating the data collect sequence.
6. Select the Diagnosis Session Type.
7. Select the Symptoms tab and enter any of the following Symptom.
1. Electrical - Climate control system - Auxiliary heating - Will not heat to required temperature.
8. Select the Recommendations Tab.
9. NOTE: All Vehicles
Battery replacement If required.
10. NOTE: Range Rover
Configure existing module - Heating ventilation and air conditioning control module.
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
DG that is excellent news. I cannot remember a time where LR has reacted so quickly to a non-safety issue. I only finished my draft complaint this weekend!
The 20% increase would equate to an increase from 17 to 20 minutes or so before starting the cool-down cycle. Not huge, but it adds time where the FBH is at its hottest. My one and only frozen windscreen since getting the car the FBH had only cleared about a foot or so up the screen and the rate of clearing was accelerating just as the FBH shut-down. The cabin had lost its chill but I would not say that it was properly warm.
Guess I need to get it back to the dealers. Not much of a snag list though after my first 1k - just the upper tailgate really.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
I have done some Remote / Timed Climate testing this week, prompted by a playing with a non-factory installed D4 timed climate (Faultmate enabled) and comparing it with my own factory installed fit. The bottom line is that the factory fit installation produces significantly more cabin heat over time compared to a D4 that does not have the additional valve & plumbing.
I did some more detailed testing on my MY13 Factory Timed Climate today in anticipation of the TSB reprogramming that increases the heating time by 20%. It was well below freezing last night so the car and coolant was cold-soaked and at the time of testing the conditions with the car in the shade were:
Outside air: 1 deg C
Car body temp: -0.8 deg C
Internal dash surface temp: 0.4 deg C
Internal air temp: 3.5 deg C
I could do with borrowing a non-factory timed climate D4 for a side-by-side comparison of heat over time to see the true benefit but I note that German companies are providing the additional 'factory fit' plumbing and coolant control valve as an aftermarket product - I am still learning!
The valve that makes all the difference:
Click image to enlarge
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 25 Jan 2008
Location: Zalesie
Posts: 7
Yes, if the valve is factory fitted, its clear that you get warmer interior compared to afterfactory non valve parking heater enabled. Its due to much smaller volume of heated coolant separated by valve. Anyway even if FBH is factory fitted with valve, 17 or 20 mins FBH running time is too short to heat up interior and engine if there is -10 degC or less, but this is the most common situation when we need FBH car preheating here in middle and north europe. Solution would be 30 or 40 mins FBH running time but lower vent fan revs (to save battery as fan is biggest energy eater). Then we would get defrosted interior/windows and preheated engine as protection of cold starts. I had it fitted like that in DII, and everything was working fine. Problem is, that in D4 this must be programmed in climate ECU, which is controlling FBH function.RRS 2006 TdV6
D4 TdV6 2012
10th Mar 2013 7:22 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
Robbie so I'm clear are you saying that factory fit remote \ timed climate is different to buying the OEM modules, the blip and then enabling by FM ?21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
10th Mar 2013 7:37 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
DG,
Yes, as jezbera has mentioned the coolant control valve and pipework is added as part of the factory timed climate kit (and explains some of the £700 option price for the non-HSEs). Ive pictured the valve above and you can see it in situ on your HSE bolted to the black FBH bracket. If you activate the timed climate via a FM you still get the functionality, but the FBH is running the coolant around the engine in addition to the heater matrix so it has a lot more mass to heat. I am unclear if there is an MY split too, as I have seen an early D4 HSE that does not have the valve as standard. The German site I have linked to below lists the parts required to add the control valve at a cost of €249.00 plus delivery (I wonder what TLO would charge for such a kit?).
On an MY12 XS without factory timed climate (Dave's):
Click image to enlarge
On my MY13 HSE with timed climate as standard:
Click image to enlarge
The extra plumbing and valve circulates the hot coolant in a short loop to the heater matrix and back. If the interior should get to temperature (unlikely with the short burn) then the valve operates and circulates the coolant around the engine in the normal fashion (but this logic changes again below -20 deg C).
As you would expect, there is a great deal more discussion regarding this on the northern european sites and more detail can be found here (German translation):
The running time is still too short but hopefully addressed by the TSB, but in comparison to a D4 without the control valve the system produces much more cabin heat.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14372
The extra plumbing valve is a 2013MY thing ... Presumably to cure the cabin heating issue ( ie .. Heat the cabin quicker than the original set up would do )G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
Last edited by wiggs on 10th Mar 2013 8:40 pm. Edited 1 time in total
10th Mar 2013 8:35 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
OK in simpleton terms then I have an HSE as you know which came with timed climate ...I bought the module kit, receiver and blip afterwards and have had them enabled ..what is not working via the remote in comparison to the factory fit ??21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
10th Mar 2013 8:39 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
DG - Effectively you have the same as me as you will have the valve. I have seen them fitted to MY12 HSEs and there is a suggestion that they were on MY11s too, but not the one I checked this week.Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
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I said surely it was just a case of the battery not holding charge and so test abttery, if dud repalce but they were insistant that the FBH should be replaced.
I have an HSE as you know which came with timed climate ...I bought the module kit, receiver and blip afterwards and have had them enabled ..what is not working via the remote in comparison to the factory fit ??
