Member Since: 23 Sep 2010
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 79
Have to agree. Great video though! If LR had stated a rating of some kind for the front recovery point then the club would have been satisfied, but there doesn't seem to be one. Unless someone here knows.....!
15th Jan 2012 10:49 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50979
They are not 'officially' rated All you can go by is the knowledge that AFAIK you won't find a single example of failure Amongst other recoveries... I snatched a fully laden D3 buried up to the hilt in sand out with a certified 12t Lifting and Crane 20% elasticated rope a few years back and nothing battered an eyelid. I really think that some of these wolly underpant wearers are just looking for an opportunity to impart a supposed superiority which is greatly misled TBH 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
15th Jan 2012 11:15 pm
diskelly
Member Since: 23 Sep 2010
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 79
DSL, guess its their club, their rules and I'm the one asking to play! My problem is its the nearest one to me in Suffolk.
15th Jan 2012 11:22 pm
disco4x4au
Member Since: 19 Jan 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 409
I went through all of this when I competed in 4x4 events here in Western Australia in my old D3. According to the scrutineers, on most 4WD's, two recovery points are fitted (one on each chassis rail) to enable the use of a bridle strap when recovering, thereby reducing the possibility of twisting the chassis or body. Each recovery point is generally rated to 4 tonnes.
My argument went along the lines of:
1. The D3 recovery point is already connected across both chassis rails
2. The D3 recovery point + connection to the body is rated to GCM - most aftermarket attached points are not attached to such load-bearing structures (and use a couple of M8 bolts that are often not even high-tensile!)
3. It is used by both LRE and the G4 challenge, who surely wouldn't leave themselves open to any liability claim that could arise from using the factory points.
I almost got them to see reason ......... almost.
In the end, I fitted one extra point front and rear (because despite their requirement for two, there was nothing in the rule books that mentioned where they should be fitted). At the front, this was a 4 tonne hook, bolted onto the end of the passenger chassis rail. At the rear it was on the driver's side a little further back, where there is a large set of holes through the rail, for which I found a bl#@dy great bolt to fit.
Of course, as we were each responsible for attaching our vehicles to the tow straps, I never actually used them - just the factory points. The only problem was burying the new front point in exit banks when crossing ditches etc. Soon learnt to favour the driver's side!
Cheers,
Gordonex - 2006 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, with lots of stuff - R.I.P.
ex - 2009 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, had lots of stuff too!
Now - 2010 RRS 3.0 TDV6, rimini red, 18" rims + Cooper LTZ, rear eLocker, Spider tuning box, GOE protection plates and rock sliders, GOE 3way shortened rods.
16th Jan 2012 1:02 am
leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4316
The good old down to interpreting the rule book
Care must be taken when attaching recovery points to 'non approved' recovery holes in the chassis.
The 'approved' recovery points will have serious strengthening inside the chassis rail to spread the load.
Other holes??
Bolt a 'recovery' point to a conveinient hole in the chassis and put a large load on it runs the possible risk of damaging the chassis as the load might just be going on the thin (1.5-2.0mm) side wall of the chassis rail.
Brendan
16th Jan 2012 9:17 am
disco4x4au
Member Since: 19 Jan 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 409
leeds wrote:
Bolt a 'recovery' point to a conveinient hole in the chassis and put a large load on it runs the possible risk of damaging the chassis as the load might just be going on the thin (1.5-2.0mm) side wall of the chassis rail.
Brendan
True, which is why I didn't use them! But it passed the "letter of the rule book". Sadly, I think they've now added (over here) the ruling that both points must be used in a recovery.
Cheers,
Gordonex - 2006 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, with lots of stuff - R.I.P.
ex - 2009 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, had lots of stuff too!
Now - 2010 RRS 3.0 TDV6, rimini red, 18" rims + Cooper LTZ, rear eLocker, Spider tuning box, GOE protection plates and rock sliders, GOE 3way shortened rods.
17th Jan 2012 12:16 am
mariusjnr
Member Since: 20 Dec 2009
Location: Gauteng
Posts: 200
Safety Bridals
The D3 recovery points is more than adequate for recovery but the snatch straps not always. Talking out of experience, the shackles or ropes even if rated can break at anytime making the recovery rigging a huge slingshot capable of ruining your day if not life. I would recommend that a second recovery point should be added to accommodate a safety bridal (green) like the setup below have a look at the bridal attached to the main rope to catch any thing that breaks.
Also have a look at the damage that only a snatch strap did to my friends D3 when trying to recover a idiot with a Land Cruiser Pickup.
Click image to enlarge
Click image to enlarge
The impact was so big that the cooler box behind the back door was broken.
Also have a look at the Video.
&list=UU_AtbT_7PU0QZnosh2_07hg&index=14&feature=plcp2012 Discovery 4 SDV6 SE 50mm Suspension Lift, Front Runner RR, Drawers, Tuffstuff Underbody Armour.
2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE 50mm Suspension lift, 33" BFG MT, Rocksliders, Bashplate. 250 000km Sold
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S, Snorkel, TorqueTune Remap, Club 250 000km, Sold
2002 Discovery 2 TD5, Roof rack, Club 250 000km, Drowned
17th Jan 2012 5:24 am
diskelly
Member Since: 23 Sep 2010
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 79
Whoa! That's an eye opener What a mess. There was a lot of stored energy in that strap. At least it was the strap not the mount that gave way!
17th Jan 2012 6:59 am
leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4316
Yes lots of energy suddenly let loose by that strap, with resulting damage. Luckily no one hurt
That short video clip does not show the recovery being done at high speed/ragging the backside of the Disco off. People well clear etc.
Where that strap broke at the edge of the stitch block is typical of a webbing strap which does not have significant damage to the webbing.
So was that strap just under rated? How was the strap used prior to it failing?
Recovery straps do need time to 'recover' between uses
Brendan
17th Jan 2012 8:26 am
mariusjnr
Member Since: 20 Dec 2009
Location: Gauteng
Posts: 200
What happened is is you have a look at my youtube channel, the guy in the cruiser wanted to go through the river but we planned to get him recovered in case he got stuck.
We hooked up the 2 x Discovery's in tandem with a properly 12ton rated strap not snatch because we needed the elastic bit between the vehicle being recovered and the last Disco. All the rigging was done with proper safety bridals and the ropes all being used for the first time that day and in god condition. The river crossing went well and we only needed to recover him up the embankment. The guy then decided he want to drive in the water (not checking it out like he did with his first run) almost to the end he got stuck in a big hole under the water. we panicked and hitched the first Discovery to the almost below the water Cruiser to get it out. then the guys hitched up the second Discovery to mine but the rope used was a old weathered snatch strap.
Moral of the story USE Safety Bridals and do the rigging with your own ropes that you know the condition of and you know the rigging has been done properly. I don't use snatch straps anymore only the military spec kinetic ropes thats been sleeved to keep mud and sand out of the find strands of woven fibres.
The purple rope in the picture, mine is just sleeved.
Click image to enlarge
Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated 2012 Discovery 4 SDV6 SE 50mm Suspension Lift, Front Runner RR, Drawers, Tuffstuff Underbody Armour.
2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE 50mm Suspension lift, 33" BFG MT, Rocksliders, Bashplate. 250 000km Sold
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S, Snorkel, TorqueTune Remap, Club 250 000km, Sold
2002 Discovery 2 TD5, Roof rack, Club 250 000km, Drowned
17th Jan 2012 10:16 am
mariusjnr
Member Since: 20 Dec 2009
Location: Gauteng
Posts: 200
The nice thing about the rope is its the way the rope is woven that makes it stretch not the material used. so you can revive the stretch with what we call the "Pofadder (Nickname for the recovery rope in SA) shuffle" and do plenty recoveries the same day.2012 Discovery 4 SDV6 SE 50mm Suspension Lift, Front Runner RR, Drawers, Tuffstuff Underbody Armour.
2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE 50mm Suspension lift, 33" BFG MT, Rocksliders, Bashplate. 250 000km Sold
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S, Snorkel, TorqueTune Remap, Club 250 000km, Sold
2002 Discovery 2 TD5, Roof rack, Club 250 000km, Drowned
17th Jan 2012 10:19 am
leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4316
Hi Marius I agree with most of your points
Yes rope structure is important
Straps/ropes etc should be retired every few years/after a hard life.
Do not fully agree with your comments about 'just the way the rope is woven that makes it stretch not the material used'
However the material used in the rope is also equally important. Most KERR or recovery ropes are made from nylon which is know for its elastic properties.
There are 4 materials normally used in synthetic ropes; polyethylene, polypropylene, polyester and polyamides.
Which material used and what rope or webbing construction is used depends on the main purpose of the rope, be it cheapness, ability to float, strength, elasticity etc.
The properties of a particular material then can be altered by the way it is prepared. i.e. molecular weight, draw ratio etc
So besides rope construction, choice of material is important and the way that material is processed is also important.
Brendan
17th Jan 2012 1:55 pm
leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4316
Hopefully the link below will work and connect to a longer video.
It clearly states that the recovery point is rated to 6 tonnes for snatch recovery.
It also that ALL the weight (10 tonnes) in video goes through the chassis of the D3 NOT the recovery point
Apologies for the misunderstanding the materials matter but I wanted to put the focus on the weave we have a couple different companies doing the same rope in South-Africa but the materials are different, but the rope does the same thing although the ones we use are the best ones in the bunch double the price but the individual strands are much thinner than the rest. Its also a lot softer when doing snatch recoveries without the sudden stop with the cheaper ones, we swear by those ropes ("puff-adder"). Ive seen some guys in really sticky situations and tried every trick in the book with all the available gear and the only rope that worked first time was one of those.
Regards
Marius2012 Discovery 4 SDV6 SE 50mm Suspension Lift, Front Runner RR, Drawers, Tuffstuff Underbody Armour.
2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE 50mm Suspension lift, 33" BFG MT, Rocksliders, Bashplate. 250 000km Sold
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S, Snorkel, TorqueTune Remap, Club 250 000km, Sold
2002 Discovery 2 TD5, Roof rack, Club 250 000km, Drowned
18th Jan 2012 4:13 am
leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4316
Hi Marius,
Some of my comments will be very general brush stroke type
Construction of ropes and cables is very important. The finer the filaments, the more flexible the rope or cable, which also would normally mean manufacturing costs go up.
Whilst most recovery ropes are made from nylon there are many different grades of nylon let alone the differences which can be imposed on the same nylon due to different processing parameters.
In the UK a lot of people in the 4x4 world use the words recovery and towing as interchangeable whereas in fact they are not.
Towing is really when you apply a 'constant steady' force to move a vehicle. That can be done using rigid bars, polyester tow straps or a nylon recovery strap/rope. Get slack built up using polyester straps, if that is taken up suddenly you get high peak forces, a 'hard' tow and you feel like the back of your vehicle has been ripped off.
Recovery in the 4x4 world normally means extracting a vehicle which is bogged and normally involves a certain amount of 'snatch'. Here nylon is far superior to polyester etc.
(Yes am ignoring winches here)
So back to the SA ropes, your cheap 'hard' recovery ropes may or may not be made out of nylon. It may be just marketed with a trade name for the material Your good 'soft' elastic rope is more then likely made out of nylon and it sounds like it is well constructed.
Do you mind sending us a link to it please?
On synthetic winch lines, Plasma and Dyneema are well respected names, some people think they are different but they are both UHMWPE or ultra high molecular weight polyethylene. Polyethylene is also used in shopping bags etc. That grade of PE is much lower MW and quality then the grade of PE used in Plasma/Dyneema.
The last 'rope' I was involved in had individual filament diameter of 1.8mm a break strength of 32 tonnes and minimum bend radius of something like 1.5 metres!, Not a standard rope
Back OT I think your comments plus photos could be summed up by saying
1) Use good quality equipment
2) Use good safe practices
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All you can go by is the knowledge that AFAIK you won't find a single example of failure 
Amongst other recoveries... I snatched a fully laden D3 buried up to the hilt in sand out with a certified 12t Lifting and Crane 20% elasticated rope a few years back and nothing battered an eyelid. I really think that some of these wolly underpant wearers are just looking for an opportunity to impart a supposed superiority which is greatly misled TBH 
What a mess. There was a lot of stored energy in that strap. At least it was the strap not the mount that gave way!
