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Wheel Nut Torque vs Anti-Seize
Noticed that the dealer used anti-seize (copper grease) on my wheel nuts a while back. I meant to ask my indie when the car was in as I was always taught not to use anti-seize or any lubricant on wheel studs as the normal torque value would actually be an over-torque.
Back in the day we had figures and even graphs kicking around that decreased the applied torque by about 25% for lubricated fasteners.
So which is it - clean and dry threads and torqued to 140Nm / use anti-seize and torque to 140Nm anyway / use anti-seize and torque or 105Nm to allow for the lubrication?Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
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Personally I wouldn't use copper grease on the wheel nuts. Yes around the centre of the hub where the wheel is at the centre, but not on the wheel nuts themselves. How do you work out what the torque should be.... ? I've also seen wheel nuts come off as well where they e been copper greased.....Bodsys Brake Bible
is meant to be done with light lubrication....
I had in a previous existance to set up injection mold tooling for the encapsulation of axial electronics components.....the tightness & security of each part & the screwed fasteners was critical. If anything loosened & let go major damage of the tool & a halt of that production commodity. Big cost & probabaly the the sack if it went wrong.
We got into the way that screwed fasteners had to be torqued.....to ensure the correct assembly & structure of the mold tool. Serious stuff.
was it:
~ straight from the box using the lube that that the fastener makers had applied (no this is mereely a rust preventative....you could get fasteners being dry & get "galling" of the threads
or
~ cleaned & lubricated (rust preventative wiped off.....not solvent cleaned...then light oil added.....e.g. hydraulic oil....as its a very good lubricant)
The experts we consulted & used (they were from GKN & Holokrome) & its the latter method that was spelt out to us.....plus the thing that really surprised us the use of tightening angle rather than a torque setting....for the critical items.....some marine & industrial engine makers (Gardner, Deutz, Cummins, Cat &c) specify & insist on this.
They (GKN) absolutely rejected the use of anti-seize compounds (Copaslip, graphite, synthetic lubricants & compounds) for two specific reasons:
1) the actual tightening of the fastener would be incorrect & likely to be an increased value that put the fastener in jeopardy....stretched screw that will be "out of pitch"
2) an insecure fastener that lets go would result..i.e. the use of the wrong lubricant means the actual ability of the fastener to stay fastened is radically reduced....they showed us some very scientific papers that proved a threaded fastener actually "holds ona about one or maybe just two threads...despite the fact there is the full nut screw engagement. (there are engineers rules about the length of thread...especially important if you have threads into light metals or materials (aluminium, alloys, brass.etc).
so to comment on the use of copaslip on wheel nuts (also serious stuff).......bad idea that may have dire consequences.
I tend to believe those who know...i.e. the fastener makers or vehicle makers rather that a motor mechanic or tyre fitter, on the grounds the latter are just trying to make things easy for themselves or as a reaction to some previous issue or problem that they didnt really understand (stretched threads). Plus critically they dont have the lasting involvment of the situation...like driving the vehicle & depending on it.
The issue that prompted the help of experts explained above was the destruction of a mould tool that cost in excess of £200,000..00 (in the early 90's). I wouldnt want to be there again.BREXIT - done properly.
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26th Jan 2012 8:57 am
cold_n_wet
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26th Jan 2012 9:49 am
sarumlight
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While I'd be interested in a definitive answer from Land Rover on whether the figure in the handbook is for dry, lightly oiled or greased bolts, I think the problem is that unless you never take your car to a garage or tyre shop you don't know how they've been done.
So check your nuts!
I've had them come loose before on my D3 and another car. I now check them 50 miles after a wheel's been off for any reason and before any big motorway or off-road trips. On the D3, if you get any kind of shimmy through the steering the wheel nuts are the first thing to check. I've also been told by a mechanic who worked on another car that a main dealer who'd seen it last had grossly over-tightened the wheel bolts and I was lucky the threads weren't damaged...
26th Jan 2012 11:18 am
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From an expert in the field of fastenings, coatings etc.....
CG wrote:
the quoted torque figure is for factory applied anti corrosion coating. I am not sure of the coating spec for the bolt and studs maybe S442 It will be a Ford spec and is a zinc flake coating with a lubricate topcoat giving a coeffcient of less than 0.1.
But the quoted range is good enough, don't be temped to put anything on the threads, you could easily snap or weaken the studs.
CG wrote:
The correct applied torque for a 8/8.8 grade M14 fastener is 112 to 168 Nm a breakloose torque of 200 by over torque could mean damage to the thread from, personally I would get the Perth dealer to change the nuts and the studs.
It is possible that the coating which has a know friction co-efficient, has been damaged. The key area is the underhead face of the nut to the top face of the washer. If so 200Nm may not have tightened the nut up fully, this is unlikely.
The opposite is very dangerous. Never improve this interface with oil or the like as you can drop the levels of friction to the extent you can snap the stud below the 168Nm.
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26th Jan 2012 11:27 am
John Salter
Member Since: 24 Nov 2009
Location: Swindon
Posts: 38
Copaslip grease contains micro sized copper particles in a non melt bentone grease.
Copper + Aluminium alloy wheels + salt + water = Electrolytic action, resulting in erosion around wheel nut area.
Molyslip make other suitable anti seize compounds, Alumslip and Nickelslip which are more suitable, that is , if you feel you have to use an anti seize compound.
Torque loading should be carried out as specified by Manufacturer, eg wet or dry, but it is very rare to have this info available from them.
,.......Alumslip and Nickelslip which are more suitable, that is , if you feel you have to use an anti seize compound.......Torque loading should be carried out as specified by Manufacturer, eg wet or dry, but it is very rare to have this info available from them.
John...the start of this thread was whether its right to use any lubricant on a fastener if it has to be or is important enough to be torqued up......not which anti-sieze lubricant to use.
The whole point of torquing things up to a set value is to ensure the assembly being made that uses fastenrs is correctly done to a desing value.....assembly not strong enough, likely to come loose, bolts not stretched..all the tjings that may spell disaster......in the case a wheel comes loose.
.....you have said "if you feel you have to use".....the integrity & safety is not down to personal preferences but the hard facts of enginering science & materials. I take the point a mechanic may add this to the vehicle being worked on...it isnt ireversible the nuts can be taken off cleaned from the anti seize & re fitted to the correct torque. A task I have done numerous times.
Your point about the disimilar metals:
...the reason that some garages / mechanics use some form of anti seize on the joint face wheel spigot is done to prevent the binding that can occur & make it more difficult to remove a wheel- with nuts off you have to bash the wheel...I have had to use the spare wheel to do this & I know guys that have taken boulders off walls to do the same.
Land Rover Disco wheel nuts have a corrosion, "growing" problem anyway....the eventually "grow" & the wheel wrench is difficult to fit.BREXIT - done properly.
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Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
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D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
,.......Alumslip and Nickelslip which are more suitable, that is , if you feel you have to use an anti seize compound.......Torque loading should be carried out as specified by Manufacturer, eg wet or dry, but it is very rare to have this info available from them.
John...the start of this thread was whether its right to use any lubricant on a fastener if it has to be or is important enough to be torqued up......not which anti-sieze lubricant to use.
The whole point of torquing things up to a set value is to ensure the assembly being made that uses fastenrs is correctly done to a desing value.....assembly not strong enough, likely to come loose, bolts not stretched..all the tjings that may spell disaster......in the case a wheel comes loose.
.....you have said "if you feel you have to use".....the integrity & safety is not down to personal preferences but the hard facts of enginering science & materials. I take the point a mechanic may add this to the vehicle being worked on...it isnt ireversible the nuts can be taken off cleaned from the anti seize & re fitted to the correct torque. A task I have done numerous times.
Your point about the disimilar metals:
...the reason that some garages / mechanics use some form of anti seize on the joint face wheel spigot is done to prevent the binding that can occur & make it more difficult to remove a wheel- with nuts off you have to bash the wheel...I have had to use the spare wheel to do this & I know guys that have taken boulders off walls to do the same.
Land Rover Disco wheel nuts have a corrosion, "growing" problem anyway....the eventually "grow" & the wheel wrench is difficult to fit.BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
26th Jan 2012 1:53 pm
Ken
Member Since: 20 Feb 2006
Location: Here
Posts: 10865
To get over "swollen nuts" use a six sided flank drive impact socket
I was mortified when the Stealer told me "my nuts was swole"
Strangely it was the whole offside of the car....none of the nearside...this cant be a coincidence... I wonder why.
The actual amount of swelling was such that a six sided Snap on hex socket which I had wouldnt fit....the LR supplied wheel brace did fit some but not all.
I then accessed the double hex Britool sockets I had elsewhere...these were tighter still. Brittol sockets seem to be a good fit. A buddy gave me a flank drive socket, which is supposed to fit all....but this has marked the new nuts I had quite badly.
Looking at the nuts the stealer had attacked - he must have used a pair of grips.BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
As Bodsy posted up from a previous post, do not put anything on the thread that was not intended to go on it.
All fastener used by O/E manufactures have to be lubricated by the selected top coat to give the required stretch in the new fastener, messing with this could result in torque relaxation or fracture.
As for torque and angle, this is use extensively in car plants with automatic guns as the tightening regime can be carried out in one operation.
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If you want to know more about fastener friction - http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/use...ontrol.pdf
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26th Jan 2012 9:22 pm
Niall
Member Since: 30 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 70
CG, there's more and then there's too much!!
So the bottom line is, don't put any lube on the threads...
Just though I would point out there are a lot of sad blokes who spend many years making sure your nuts don't fall off
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