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Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6903
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It really boils down to some people thinking the countryside is their own and nobody else can have fun in it.
Think of the lake district, they have banned jet skis and speed boats from Windermere (or is it a rediculously slow speed limit that makes it no point in going), thats hardly because of errosion, there is also a place people have dived at near us for at least the past 30 years, now new owners have bought a nearby house, all they do is harass us, especially the women because it isn't silent there for them (although hardly noisey).
This appears to be another case like that, I don't think the ramblers have a middle ground, it's just ban them totally from the park. These were green roads that were being talked about, a relatively few miles of lanes, the walkers, cyclists and horse riders probably have hundreds of miles of paths and bridleways they can use in the park totally free from motorised vehicles. You will probably find the mountain bikers are the ones being moaned at there by the ramblers! This really does seem to be a country where some people just don't want others to have fun. There is also a mountain bile track set up in a park near us, specifically built for mountain biking with warning signs showing that, but see the looks you get from walkers, they just think they own the place.
One thing that I did agree with though, the park commission should be closing off lanes when they need to recover, maybe a rolling programme of closures would work, but it would need to be a blanket ban, not just one group. Joined the BMWX5 45e group
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31st Oct 2011 8:08 am |
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Discoed
Member Since: 16 Jun 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1020
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maplecottage wrote:C all permissible (and therefore definitive) rights of way have a nominated width which describes how much 'lane' is supposed to be available at any point along its length.
This is a bit of a simplification of the legal situation. Not all definitive routes have an accompanying statement of the width, if they do then it is conclusive evidence. If a route has been set out by virtue of an enclosure award then the width of the route is usually recorded within the award.
There is a general assumption that if a route runs between two walls or fences than the whole of that area is dedicated for use as the highway (unless those walls or hedges have been established not in reference to the highway)
Generally speaking if there is no statement of width or other evidence then the following default widths apply
Footpath - 1.8 metres
Bridleway - 3 metres
BOAT/carriageway - 5 metres
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1st Nov 2011 8:06 pm |
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CFB
Member Since: 02 Dec 2005
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posts: 6100
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Just watched this on Sky+, typical one sided view really. A load of doddery old folks who don't like 4x4 or bike users in the parks and want them banned for just that reason, because 'they don't like them'.
I do think green-laning is virtually finished in this country which is a great shame as I can't ever see a reverse in thinking.
Time to plan a Disco3 forum trip to the Peak District (and that little lane featured in the programme) before they shut the lot me thinks 2020 BMW X1 18d XDrive X-Line Auto
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1st Nov 2011 11:35 pm |
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MartinR
Member Since: 27 Jan 2008
Location: Oxon
Posts: 708
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Discoed wrote:the following default widths apply
Footpath - 1.8 metres
Bridleway - 3 metres
BOAT/carriageway - 5 metres
Blimey, a lot of the bridleways round here are down to about a 10th of that - considering shinguards for when I'm out on the mountain bike because of all the nettle stings!
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2nd Nov 2011 8:58 am |
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biskit
Member Since: 23 Dec 2009
Location: in my Mancave.
Posts: 1376
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Did Cherpit Lane at the weekend with our local Land Rover club, it was nice and clean, after the local council cut back the brambles,my D3,a 110, and two 90s then three more batches of D1s 90s S3 110s,a great days lanes was had by all.There was a warden at the start of the lane keeping an eye on things, i think Dunc, Mark, Clive, Steve did'nt make it on the outing.
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8th Nov 2011 10:03 pm |
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CDS
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Send me a text next time biskit, can't see event on mlrc forum until I actually attend a meeting or event!
I know you mentioned it the other day but got a brain like a sieve!
PS my disco was laid up waiting for TFC and a new alternator until Sunday lunch time, so disappointment was avoided by me forgetting you'd mentioned it in any case
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8th Nov 2011 11:10 pm |
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Chicken Duck
Member Since: 11 Nov 2009
Location: Italy
Posts: 1387
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biskit wrote: Dunc, Mark, Clive, Steve did'nt make it on the outing. ![Big Cry Big Cry](images/smiles/icon_bigcry.gif)
Was MOT time Bernard Ps can A1 do timing belts?
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9th Nov 2011 11:19 am |
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leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4313
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One very important question
WHY is this thread in the OFF ROAD forum?
Driving a green lane is not OFF ROAD
By LEGAL definition a green lane or non sealed surface road is a ROAD with vehicular rights of way.
The presenter of that programme DELIBERATELY used the expression OFF ROADERS continuously to create a negative impact.
By having this thread in the OFF ROAD forum you are confirming the public wrong impression that driving a green lane is off roading.
Big difference if off road then you do not need a road legal vehicle/MOT/RFL/insurance or a driving licence. OK pay and play sites/challenge events might have their own requirements.
Back to Cherpit Lane.
It is a LEGAL road dating back about 200 years and both the DCC and PDNP accept this as a fact.
What is the condition of Cherpit Lane? The OFFICIAL view is as follows
Quote:
Loose stone surface
Narrow and restricted width
Overhanging vegetation
Safety issues associated
with variety of different users
What OFFICIAL action has been taken?
Quote:
This lane has been cleared of over-hanging vegetation and repaired by DCC. Use is now being closely monitored by
PDNPA staff and Operation Blackbrook enforcement days have frequently taken place.
Unfortunately it has not been possible to agree voluntary works between vehicle users and local people, but partners
continue to look at potential improvements. Advisory signage has been installed by the PDNPA at the request of
the police and Highway Authority.
Please note that the PDNP is NOT the highway authority, hence DCC doing the work.
Note ADVISORY signs installed not legal enforceable signs.
What is Operation Blackbrook
Quote:
Operation Blackbrook, is an on-going initiative launched in April 2007 to look at complaints about
‘off road’ bikers and 4x4 drivers travelling through areas of the National Park. Residents in these
areas had complained of noise, pathway erosion caused by the motorcycles and 4x4 vehicles
and finding it hard to use the unsurfaced tracks, public footpaths and bridleways due to damage
caused by motor vehicles.
Operation Blackbrook is a joint venture between Derbyshire Police and the PDNPA’s access and
rights of way team and rangers, with close co-operation from vehicle user group PDVUG.
The operation aims to encourage motorists to use lawful unsurfaced roads and byways,
understand the impact that their activities on the lives of local residents and use peer pressure to
stop the minority driving unlawfully or inconsiderately.
What is the LEVEL OF USE of Green Lanes in the PDNP?
This is extremely important as various programmes/anti 4x4 lobby groups would suggest that hordes of 4x4 are roaring through the countryside at all hours of the day and night!
Quote:
Levels of Use
Average use has consistently been found to be 150 vehicles per (28 day) month per route during
2008-2010, with around 80% of the total being motorbikes and 75% occurring at weekends. Use
predominantly occurs during 9am-5pm, meaning that, on average, a National Park green lane is
used by 113 motorbikes and 27 other vehicles (which may include agricultural vehicles) per
month. Therefore, on average 90 motorbikes and 21 other vehicles use each route at weekends
per month; on average between 1 and 2 motorbikes an hour and one other vehicle every 3 hours
at weekends (11 motorbikes and 3 other vehicles per day). As less used routes are subject to
less complaints and therefore less need for data collection, this use is likely to represent an
average on the busier routes within the National Park.
Some routes are busier than others, and higher upper levels of use of around 550 vehicles in
particular months have been recorded on certain routes (notably Pindale at Castleton and the
Roych at Chapel-en-le-Frith). Some routes show very low levels of use, and signals with no use
throughout a month are sometimes recorded. Level of usage, therefore, follows a standard
pattern for all other user groups; with some routes seeming to appeal to users more than others.
So what does that mean?
Average green lane in PDNP sees 3 vehicle movements every TWO hours between the hours of 9-5 at weekends.
Not exactly a horde of vehicles roaring through the green lanes in PDNP
How much money has been spent on the upkeep of green lanes in Derbyshire recently?
The PDNP has not spent a money! WHY it is not the highway authority.
DCC Highway authority has spent £82,000 on Chapelgate and Long Causeway recently.
Please note it can be difficult to find out how much is spent on footpaths and greenlanes in the PDNP
What is the cost of repairs to footpaths in the PDNP? Difficult to find figures, however the LDNP reckons it costs in excess of £100 per METRE to stone pitch a footpath. How many kilometres of footpaths have been stone pitched in the PDNP at a cost of £100,000+/kilometre.
Sorry for the rant folks but if people in the 4x4 world do not understand the difference between off road and on road driving what hope have we got with the general public.
IF YOU want to convince your work mates/families/friends about the legality of the situation get YOUR facts right in the first place
OK soap box away, hope have not used up too much forum bandwidth!
Brendan
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9th Nov 2011 12:25 pm |
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CFB
Member Since: 02 Dec 2005
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posts: 6100
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We don't have a 'green-laning' section on the forum so this seems the appropriate place to put such a thread. Despite the legalities I still class green laning as off road driving although I accept that it's factually incorrect. 2020 BMW X1 18d XDrive X-Line Auto
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9th Nov 2011 1:23 pm |
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leeds
Member Since: 30 Aug 2010
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 4313
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So you are prepared to accept and help propagate the myth that green landing is off reading then?
No wonder the general public is confused about green laning !
Simple solution is either put green laning threads in general forum or ask for a specific green lane forum!
Many members of the general public think that 4 x 4 should be banned! When you ask them why they get confused. Especially when you tell them many cars are 4 x 4 or AWD
You will only educate the general public if you have factually correct arguments to put forward!
Brendan
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9th Nov 2011 1:46 pm |
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CDS
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Most members of the general public couldn't care less about the legal difference between off roading and green laning, this can be confirmed when you ring you insurance company and see if they will insure your vehicle for 'off road' use, they come back about SORN every time - these are people who work in the legal areas of a motor related trade.........
People will always use common terms inaccurately "ooo the Doctor says I've got blood pressure" - no sherlock, you'd be dead without any blood pressure. I could go on for ever but most will see the difference as splitting hairs and being boring.
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9th Nov 2011 1:54 pm |
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Slimer
Site Moderator
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Last Exit to Nowhere
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leeds wrote:Simple solution is either put green laning threads in general forum or ask for a specific green lane forum! Even simpler would to just rename this one the Off Roading & Green Laning, will ask Martin to do it The End
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9th Nov 2011 1:56 pm |
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Gareth
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I agree, it needs clarifying.
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9th Nov 2011 2:00 pm |
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Martin
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Done, although this forum's description did contain the phrase "green laning" I apologise for the generic "Off Roading" title. 06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
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9th Nov 2011 2:06 pm |
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DG
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Tut tut ....get with the programme Martin You'll be wearing a chav hat and driving a tricked up Suzuki next 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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9th Nov 2011 2:20 pm |
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