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RUTLANDER
Member Since: 10 Oct 2011
Location: OAKHAM
Posts: 2
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Got my first question answered :
The small trailer exemption will cease to exist for those operating for hire or reward only. It will remain for "restricted/own account" operators. The exemption for "dual purpose vehicles" will also remain.
The exemption from goods vehicle operator licensing for "Dual purpose vehicles" is contained within Schedule 3 (2) of the Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995.
The full description of a "dual purpose vehicle" can be found in Regulation 3 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986. It includes 4x4s - like Land Rovers and their equivalents and states:
“a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either-
(i) is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all of the wheels of the vehicle; or
(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely –
the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver’s seat must -
(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
(ii) be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
(c) the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in the head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.â€
I must emphasise that this is the view of this Department based upon the information provided and is not intended to be a strict interpretation of the law. Only a Court of Law is able to give a legally definitive interpretation.
This was the response from VOSA Operater Licence department. Before contacting them I also spoke to aVOSA Traffic Examiner and asked him about the new regs coming in. His reply to my friend Duncan's predicament was that his Disco would fall under the Exemptions case. Did not think he knew that the kerbweight of a Disco is around 2583 kg........
If you are required to have Standard Operators Licence ,then you will need to consider the following:
Financial Standing -£8100 for the first vehicle, then £4500 each other vehicle.
Good Repute
Professional Competence- You will need to have a CPC or employ a CPC Holder to go on your licence -current definition of a CPC Holder advises that for an operator with one vehicle on his licence, then he should be available for 8hrs/one day per week to ensure that the Operator is legally compliant in all aspects of his operation.
You will also need to have a maintenance contract with a reputable 'garage' or be able to demonstrate that you are competent to carry ot inspections yourself on a timely basis-6/8/10 weekly for example.
You will also need an operating centre to park your vehicle- this could prove interesting ..
Furher updates later.
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 11th Oct 2011 8:25 am |
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ruggedpeak
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
  
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Any similarity between the EU and a fascist state is purely coincidental........
Remember folks you're paying for all of this in your taxes but you have no democratic control over these decisions. All our elected politicians are completely impotent to protect us. Tony
Club RLD Wheel Protector & Sump Guard
Club 4x4 Info activated
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| 11th Oct 2011 8:46 am |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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So... A DPV under C&U regs is any 4WD with a unladen weight of 2040kg (LR Freelander, Honda CRV, Audi Q5, Terios, Jimny...  )? That weight limit excludes a wide range of vehicles that could actually do the job - D3/4, LC, Trooper, Patrol, et al.
Under VAT rules, a DPV with a payload of less than 1 tonne is considered a "car" for VAT rules so that discounts the Freelander, CRV and Q5 brigade, but does include most of the double cab pickups. The 1 tonne payload exclusion also excludes all but 2 current Defender models.
BIK rules seem to follow VAT rules.
VED / RFL appears to follow the VAT / BIK rules - FLs, CRVs, etc are taxed as cars while Double Cab pickups are taxed as LCVs. If the C&U regs state that the lighter 4WDs are DPVs, why aren't they taxed accordingly?
If a heavy vehicle is not considered a car, then it comes under commercial MoT rules. If the vehicle is heavier than 3050kg max all up mass, then a Class 7 MoT applies. That makes MoTing a D3/4, LC / Amazon, etc an expensive hobby
And then... we'll get onto speed limits. If our beloved vehicles are classified as commercial, then we will be restricted to 50/60/70 - and still get overtaken by overweight Sprinters...
It's a mess. Club missing my D3
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| 11th Oct 2011 1:31 pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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Is the following still in force:
Quote:4. A motor vehicle constructed or adapted primarily for the carriage of passengers and their
effects, and any trailer drawn by it, while being so used.
That quote comes from Schedule 3, Part I of the Goods Vehicles regs but legislation.gov.uk only has the original statutory instrument, not any updates.
It would appear to state that the vehicle (regardless of use, hire or reward, etc) is, by design, exempt from these regs. No exemptions for small trailers, towing of fairground attractions, etc are necessary. This seems far too simple and therefore must be wrong. Club missing my D3
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| 11th Oct 2011 3:04 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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UPDATE IN TODAY FROM VOSA AFTER FURTHER MORE IN DEPTH QUESTIONING:
QUESTION
"So if I may clarify, under the revised legislation coming in to force as of 4th Dec 2011 under EU 1071/2009 which takes precedence over Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 and in doing so specifically abolishes the "small trailer exemption" that exists as defined under the current Goods Vehicle Act 1995 as having an unladen weight not exceeding 1020kg, would mean my Land Rover Discovery 3 passenger vehicle towing a 3500kg GVW trailer for hire or reward does not need to have a "Standard Operators Licence" or any other form of OL due to its nature being a "dual purpose" vehicle?
ANSWER
Yes.
QUESTION
On another equally important issue, assuming I own a 3500kg "goods vehicle/single car transporter" that would in fact need an OL by 4th Dec 2011, but the existing 1995 Legislation has yet to be redrafted to include those legislative changes as confirmed under EU 1071/2009
ANSWER
The Road Transport Operator Regulations 2011 will take in these changes as a Statutory Instrument (i.e secondary legislation). These regulations are yet to be signed off by Ministers.
1) At what point prior to 4th Dec 2011 deadline shoild one apply for a Standard Licence as the current legislation (1995 GV Act) does not include my vehicle combination but will do as of 12.01 midnight 4th Dec 2011?
ANSWER
It is advisable to apply at least nine weeks before the licence is required.
2)Is there likely to be a "transitional" period prior to roadside enforcement after the 4th Dec deadline for those who are effected in order to apply under what will be the new and updated Goods Vehicle Act 1995.
ANSWER
This may turn out to be the case, although it is yet to be officially confirmed.
3) Regards "speed limiters". As you are aware, any "goods vehicle" with a GVW(GTW in the case of the so to be amended Goods Vehicle Act 1995) exceeding 3500kg and registered after Oct 2001, that a speed limiter would need to be fitted along side the existing fitment of a calibrated tachograph. So given the abolishing of the "small trailer exemption" would I be correct to assume that as the GTW is over 3500kg that a limiter would also need to be fitted to any future Goods vehicle/trailer combination
ANSWER
My understanding is that the requirements of regulation 36A and 36B of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 apply to the motor vehicle itself (and its date of manufacture - where relevant to those regulations) and that any attendant trailers that may be used in combination with that vehicle will have no bearing on this.
4)on the aspect of EU Drivers CPC, would the 3500kg Goods Vehicle towing a trailer with a combined GTW over 3500kg mean that the driver would need to hold a Drivers CPC Card after 2013?
ANSWER
My reading of Regulation 4 of the Vehicle Drivers (Certificates of Professional Competence) Regulations
2007 [SI No 2007/605] confirms that new drivers of vehicles from September 2009 and of vehicles in categories C and C + E are in scope of driver CPC. This is a stand-alone requirement of those Regulations and should have no bearing on the implementation of EU regulation 1071/2009.
Chris Slowley
Operator Licensing
Strategy and Customer Directorate
VOSA
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| 11th Oct 2011 10:43 pm |
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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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Are we to assume from the above that there is no upper weight limit for dual purpose vehicles?
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| 11th Oct 2011 11:31 pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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I've just had a phone call from my local VOSA office following from an e-mail I sent them detailing my situation.
In summary - they don't know. They are waiting for guidance from Policy
They don't know what exemptions and derogations will remain in force:
50km radius - probably
fixed items fitted - probably
specialised fairground equipment - probably
solo DPV - probably
DPV + trailer - almost definitely will change, but there might be a new combination value below which, the combo is exempt
They don't know what the grace period will be after 4th Dec but acknowledge that there has to be...
He has promised to keep me informed of any developments Club missing my D3
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| 12th Oct 2011 12:04 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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IMO the final word for us D3/4 owners:
Hi Chris
Sorry to harp on about the issue of my Land Rover Discovery 3 passenger vehicle, but I'm getting alot of divided opinion on this due to the definition of "dual purpose".
The Road Vehicles (Contruction and Use) Regulation 1986 defines a dual purpose vehicle as:
"a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg,"
A 2005 Land Rover Discovery 3 weighs more, infact around 2700 kg - not wishing to question your judgement but are we sure this would infact still be considered as a dual purpose vehicle?
ANSWER
Matthew
We are aware of this situation with dual purpose vehicles, where the ULW of 2040 kgs is concerned.
The RV [Construction & Use Regulations] 1986 have been amended countless times down the years , but are still a quarter of a century old. To my knowledge that part of regulation 3 (where the DPV definition stems from) has not been amended in this time. As time has passed,vehicles have got progressively bigger in size and perhaps the legislation has not kept up.
Where any Land Rover, Range Rover (or any other equivalent Japanese) 4x4 is used in combination, I suggest that we should still treat it as a DPV - at least for operator licensing purposes.
Regards
Chris Slowley
Operator Licensing
Strategy and Customer Directorate
VOSA
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| 12th Oct 2011 11:21 pm |
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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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Which is fantastic news for me and you, but has no basis in law!
Here's to hoping it stands up when we get stopped.
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| 13th Oct 2011 12:32 am |
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Frapp
Member Since: 19 Dec 2008
Location: Norff Zummerzet
Posts: 1655
 
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 me thats interesting reading.
Its still as clear as a bucket of shoit 
So, on Dec 4th this year, they are bringing in new regs which VOSA dont really understand.
Have I got that right ?
Frapp
Club Operators Licence
Club Tacho
Club EA Waste carriers licence
Club Lots of trailers
Club Lots of things to put on them
Club Wait until I get pulled and see if the dick understands why he pulled me Member of the carrot crank club
Embarrassingly in for the 2nd round, bought another two
D3 Jack Russell carrier
D4 Landmark for towing duties
Last edited by Frapp on 13th Oct 2011 8:27 am. Edited 1 time in total
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| 13th Oct 2011 7:49 am |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
 
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Silly question... but..
If I pickup a trailer load of logs from my Dad, who hasnt charged me for them - is this classed as a "reward" and would i need an O Licence, on the basis I have profited from the load as I havnt paid for them 
a bit on the extreme,but if so, where will it end ?? Duncan
-----------------------------------------------------
If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 13th Oct 2011 8:12 am |
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Frapp
Member Since: 19 Dec 2008
Location: Norff Zummerzet
Posts: 1655
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No, its classed as waste so you will need An EA waste carriers licence  Member of the carrot crank club
Embarrassingly in for the 2nd round, bought another two
D3 Jack Russell carrier
D4 Landmark for towing duties
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| 13th Oct 2011 8:30 am |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
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 Duncan
-----------------------------------------------------
If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 13th Oct 2011 8:49 am |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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DiscoDunc wrote:Silly question... but..
If I pickup a trailer load of logs from my Dad, who hasnt charged me for them - is this classed as a "reward" and would i need an O Licence, on the basis I have profited from the load as I havnt paid for them
a bit on the extreme,but if so, where will it end ??
Of course not, there is no element of hire OR reward financially, but HMRC might get yer for P11d benefit in kind for the cup of tea/biscuits at the other end
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| 13th Oct 2011 9:34 am |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Ian G wrote:Which is fantastic news for me and you, but has no basis in law!
Here's to hoping it stands up when we get stopped.
might be worth printing this thread off and keeping in the D3, one assumes you've got a tacho fitted if you travel outside a 50 mile radius of yer base with yer own kit
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| 13th Oct 2011 9:38 am |
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