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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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Update - a limited number of people know.
I'm actually fairly clear as it does impact upon me, and I still maintain it's overcomplicated and expensive for smaller operators.
And there's also nothing on that Business Link link to indicate that the information is out of date - or soon to be so. And it does quite clearly state that passenger carrying vehicles or vehicles with a winch are exempt. Something I personally wouldn't proceed to rely on as it's frankly poor advice.
Rather in keeping with the rest of the official guidance on running large vehicles.
I too have corresponded at length with these people and after much deliberation the best answer to me was to take it to court and see how you get on.
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 9th Oct 2011 2:52 am |
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ruggedpeak
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
  
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I think the key bit of the regs is here:
An operator’s licence can be issued in one of three formats:
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Restricted
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Standard National
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Standard International
1.8 To carry your own goods in the course of your trade or business you need a restricted licence. You must not carry goods for other people for hire or reward if you have a restricted licence. If you do, you could be fined and lose your licence.
1.9 A standard national licence allows you to carry your own goods in Great Britain, AND to carry goods for other people for hire or reward in Great Britain. Even if you carry other people’s goods only occasionally, you must have a standard national licence. You can be fined if you use your vehicles for international hire or reward work when your licence covers you for national operations only. However, a standard national licence allows you to haul loaded trailers to or from ports within Great Britain as part of an international journey as long as your motor vehicles do not actually leave Great Britain.
1.10 A standard international licence allows you to carry your own goods, and goods for other people for hire or reward, both in Great Britain and on international journeys. Operators who are issued with international licences will also receive Community Authorisations which are required for all hire or reward operations in, or through European Union countries. These have replaced the need for community permits, bilateral permits between member states and permits for transit traffic through the EU but not permits for travel to or through non-EU countries where these are still required. See Appendix 12 for further information.
If like Character you carry other peoples' stuff for money you need a Standard licence. NOTE; the law is very clear on this, any form of payment or consideration is covered e.g. just paying for fuel, or work done in lieu of cash, and there is NO requirement to show a profit was made. It still counts if you took a loss but were paid something.
If you only move your own stuff (burger van, mini digger etc) then you need a Restricted Licence unless you fall under the weight limits. Forget Showman's - you'll just end up in a heap of doodoo unless the vehicle confirms and is registered and taxed as such. Tax a D3 as a Showmans and in most cases you could be looking at a fraud charge as well as licencing issues. You are well advised to always carry paperwork relating to the load to convince VOSA/Police as to the nature of the load. I imagine 4x4's with trailers will be a target for enforcement at some point. Most Traffic Police have dedicated Commercial Vehicle units and you might pull the wool over the eyes of a normal officer, but the CVU guys and gals are used to dealing with foreign truckers and their tricks, so UK 4x4 drivers won't be a challenge!  Tony
Club RLD Wheel Protector & Sump Guard
Club 4x4 Info activated
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| 9th Oct 2011 8:31 am |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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Ian G, I'd be very sceptical of the businesslink information. They can't even get the definition of a dual purpose vehicle correct. The classification of a DPV is for vehicle excise purposes and guess what, if a D3/D4, FFRR or any other large 4x4 fell into this category, you wouldn't be paying £400 plus for road tax and your vehicle wouldn't classed as a "car" for Benefit in Kind or VAT purposes.
The "dual purpose" is for cargo and/or passengers. Not on and/or offroad capability.
Edit: Also, the fitment of a winch won't help either. The dispensation only exists if there is nothing else on the vehicle that is not crucial to the operation of the equipment. We also carry "seats" which are fundamental to the safe carriage of passengers, not fundamental to the operation of a winch - unless all 6 passengers are required as part of the self-recovery...
Edit, edit: the D3 is not a "passenger carrying vehicle." It's a "car." A PCV is a vehicle that can carry 8 or more passengers (up to 16 pax). i.e. a minibus. Club missing my D3
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| 9th Oct 2011 12:50 pm |
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xtc
Member Since: 27 Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 1072
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character wrote:Unnecessary quote removed
no as its now going to be based upon the train weight of the towing vehicle and its trailer together, therefore if over 3500KG GTW you need a O-licence have it be a "restricted" one for your own tools/equipment etc. 
Sorry to jump in with a question.. 
Does this mean it's exempt if the combined vehicle and empty trailer weight is less than 3500kg, with the trailer then being able to carry it's rated load on top? Off Roading is OK.... But I'd rather be Boating!
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| 9th Oct 2011 6:45 pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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'Fraid not. It'll be based on the max weight not the unloaded weight.
That's why it will have such an impact on virtually everyone who tows for a living whether their vehicle is a Transit, a baby 3.5tonner or a D3/D4 Club missing my D3
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| 9th Oct 2011 6:59 pm |
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xtc
Member Since: 27 Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 1072
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Thanks for the reply...  For soemone who tow's a trailer a couple of times a year that is a real AAAAAAArse! Off Roading is OK.... But I'd rather be Boating!
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| 9th Oct 2011 7:34 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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oh yea, DO NOT FORGET YOU WILL NEED A TACHOGRAPH AS WELL xtc
It's always been a legal requirement where the gross train weight is OVER 3500kg (unless you are carrying your own goods within a 50 mile radius of your base or a registered recovery vehicle ie a vehicle that has been adapted for the colletion/delivery of disabled vehicles only, in which case you have a 60 mile radius to work within like yer AA man in his transit with his braked dolly).
So be aware, VOSA/Plod will be looking for two things as of 4th dec, 1) you display an OL sticker in the windscreen and 2) you've got a calibrated tachogaph on board unless you are exempt (which TBH is unlikely to be few on here). 
Tell yer what, glad my soon to be appointed TM is a former CVU Traffic officer - it was him that gave me heads up on the changes 
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| 9th Oct 2011 9:40 pm |
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xtc
Member Since: 27 Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 1072
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I shall sadly just use the van rather than the comfort of the Disco with a trailer...  , I have just had a really good cover made for the trailer! Off Roading is OK.... But I'd rather be Boating!
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| 9th Oct 2011 11:24 pm |
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RUTLANDER
Member Since: 10 Oct 2011
Location: OAKHAM
Posts: 2
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I have read with interest the comments re the new regs coming into force on 4 Dec and have been contacted by my friend Duncan on this forum re the the imposing regs. As I am a Transport Consultant involved in O LicencingApplications and matters relating to Operator Legal Compliance and Tachograph Rules and Regulations together with WTD Regulations I find that there is a lot of misinformation regarding the legislation coming into force on 4 Dec for 4x4 opeartors in this forum. Today I have been in discussion with the the relevant authorities and there is a point of law of the new regulation which needs to be clarified as to what the new legislation proposes to enact on 4 Dec. I shall post the outcome of my concerns and the response from the relevant authorities within the next few days in order to clarify the criteria under which you can operate with towing trailers and also to try and come up with a user friendly interpretation of the forthcoming law.
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| 10th Oct 2011 9:58 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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wait not longer my friend.........
Morning Steve
Trust you're well and keeping busy.
A bit concerned regards the EU Regs 1071/2009 coming in to force as of 4th
Dec 2011. Read the Public Consultation August 2011 and in particular the
decision to abolish the "small trailer exemption" (page 48).
As you will recall, I currently run a 2005/55 Land Rover Discovery 3
PASSENGER VEHICLE pulling a Brian James Tri-axle single car trailer for
"hire or reward". Naturally fitted with a tacho, I adhere to the Work Time
Directive and of course EU Tacho Legislation.
The confusion for me with respect to the future changes are these:
1) The consultation documents refers to small trailer exemption as being
related to "small goods vehicles" as defined by The Goods Vehicles
(Licencing of Operators) Act 1995, Schedule 1, however the EU 1071/2009 Act
Article 1, paragraph 4 says and I quote "By way of derogation from
paragraph 2, this Regulation shall, unless otherwise provided for in
national law, not apply to: (a) undertakings engaged in the occupation of
road haulage operators solely by means of motor vehicle or combinations of
vehicles the permissible laden mass of which does not exceed
3500kg........."
Clearly the changes to the trailer exemption are by there nature looking to
target those single vehicle transporters who then tow a trailer behind
giving a two vehicle capability which has always been a bone of contention
for me only being able to transport one vehicle at a time, but for me I use
a M1 category of vehicle (ie a 5 seater car) which attracts a higher/normal
level of RFL as oppose to the lower rate of duty if it were classed as a
"light goods vehicle" and also means that I am liable for P11d benefit in
kind to HMRC but more importantly has no capacity to transport "goods"
other than my kit for the purpose of loading/unloading the vehicle I carry
on the transporter.
So on the one hand The Goods Vehicles (Licencing of Operators) Act
1995/Public Consultation 1071/2009 refers directly to a "light goods
vehicle" in its description when talking about the abolition of the small
trailer exemption, but on the other hand EU 1071/2009 just leaves it as
"motor vehicle or combination of vehicles".
Can someone just confirm whether or not a M1 Class of vehicle like our
Discovery 3, five seater passenger vehicle which tows a trailer is likely
to be effected to by the EU 1071/2009 and if so, what timescale will VOSA
take after the legislation comes in to force from 4th Dec 2011 to allow
single vehicle operators to apply for and have implemented an Operators
Licence.
Many thanks
REPLY AS FOLLOWS:
Dear Matthew
I refer to your e – mail addressed to Steve Whitehart , concerning the above. Steve has passed it to me, as I deal with policy queries in relation to operator licensing.
First of all, under existing legislation (Schedule 3 (2) of the goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995) "a dual purpose vehicle and any trailer drawn by it" is identified as exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing.
Therefore, the new regulations coming in relating to small vehicles and trailers (see below) will not apply to 4x4/trailer combinations such as your Land Rover Discovery.
However, the new EU regulation will apply to van/trailer combinations as follows: -
"For operators of vehicles that carry their own goods in connection with their trade or business
If the combined gross plated weights of drawing vehicle and trailer do not exceed 3.5 tonnes or (where there is no gross plated weight) the total unladen weights do not exceed 1,525 kgs an operators licence will not be
required. Please note that any trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020 KGs, need not be taken in to account in this calculation.
A restricted licence will be required - where the above mentioned weights are exceeded.
For operators of vehicles who will be carrying a customers goods for hire or reward
Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes will require an operators licence.
Where a customer's goods are being carried for hire or reward a standard licence will be required. "
I should point out that this is in VOSA’s view and does not constitute legal opinion.
I hope that the information given above has been of some help. If you have any further queries, do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Chris Slowley
Operator Licensing
Strategy and Customer Directorate
VOSA
HOPE THIS HELPS PEEPS 
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| 10th Oct 2011 11:12 pm |
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dantheman
Member Since: 12 Mar 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 1728
 
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So I could tow a trailer behind my Disco with materials on it and not need a 'O' License but if I put the same trailer with the same materials on it behind my van then I would? Have I got that right? Think I know what I will use then 
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| 10th Oct 2011 11:23 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Unnecessary quote removed
D'yer know what, I had to read his reply at least 3 times, but according to VOSA, their approach under the new legislation is to ignore 4x4 towing a trailer but after white van man instead 
BTW would'nt like to test the same theory with a D3/4 commercial and a trailer
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| 10th Oct 2011 11:30 pm |
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dantheman
Member Since: 12 Mar 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 1728
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My van is red .... so I should be ok then 
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| 10th Oct 2011 11:34 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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| 10th Oct 2011 11:37 pm |
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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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Quote:dual-purpose vehicle
a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made
Quote:Therefore, the new regulations coming in relating to small vehicles and trailers (see below) will not apply to 4x4/trailer combinations such as your Land Rover Discovery.
Except that it weighs more than 2040kg, so isn't a dual purpose vehicle for the purpose of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.
So either the 1986 has been superseded, or we're not relying on that definition, or this guy is wrong.
I dearly hope it's one of the former.
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| 11th Oct 2011 4:11 am |
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