dantheman
Member Since: 12 Mar 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 1728
  
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Sounds like another nail in the coffin of honest sole traders to me. Will stick to just a van and get things delivered and pass the cost onto customer. 
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 8th Oct 2011 11:35 am |
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dantheman
Member Since: 12 Mar 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 1728
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| Re: NEW LAW REGARDS D3/D4 TOWING AS OF 4TH DEC 2011 |
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" Abolition of the small trailer exemption
Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 of the Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 exempts from operator licensing a ‘small goods vehicle’ forming part of a vehicle combination (not being an articulated combination) where all the vehicles comprising the combination excluding any ‘small trailer’ have a plated weight not exceeding 3.5 tonnes.
A small trailer is defined under the Act as a trailer with an unladen weight not exceeding 1020kg. This trailer does not need to be included when calculating the 3.5 tonne limit.
However, under the Regulation all the vehicle combination (including any trailer) operating for hire or reward must be included when calculating the weight limit, so the small trailer exemption will be abolished for hire or reward operations from 4 December 2011. However, the small trailer exemption under paragraph 3 of schedule 1 of the Goods Vehicle (Licensing of Operators) Act 1995 will remain in place for operators carrying goods other than for hire or reward."
Just reading this again if I collect goods ie materials on a trailer taking me over the 3500kgs then I would not need a O license. Materials would not be classed as hire or reward unless I was directly selling them to customer and delivering them and doing nothing else with them. If I was using them as part of an extension then should be exempt....... i think 
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| 8th Oct 2011 12:03 pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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According to the NTTA website, the vehicle MoT will include towbars and towbar electrics from next year too. They state a "physical" inspection of the metalwork (fat lot of good that'll be!!!) and a test box for the electrics.
I'm watching this thread with great interest. Good catch Character! Club missing my D3
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| 8th Oct 2011 5:56 pm |
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ruggedpeak
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
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| Re: NEW LAW REGARDS D3/D4 TOWING AS OF 4TH DEC 2011 |
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dantheman wrote:
Just reading this again if I collect goods ie materials on a trailer taking me over the 3500kgs then I would not need a O license. Materials would not be classed as hire or reward unless I was directly selling them to customer and delivering them and doing nothing else with them. If I was using them as part of an extension then should be exempt....... i think
That is how it appears. However if you transport materials to a building site for your use to work on a customer's property, and they pay you for the building work, then your journey and the goods are beign used for hire and reward, namely you are getting paid for the work (whether you make a profit or not is not relevant).
Most of the definitions online refer to minibuses and cabs for driving licencing (code 101 on the back of your licence). However I am pretty certain any business use involving a customer would require an OL. If however you were carrying materials to build your own office to operate in then there may an argument that you are not engaged in hire and reward since no one else is paying you to build the office.
The best advice I can find is this :
Most goods vehicles with a gross plated weight of over 3.5 tonnes or, if there is no plated weight, an unladen weight of over 1525 kg require a goods vehicle operator’s licence, if they are used to carry goods or burden of any description in connection with a trade or business, or for hire or reward. The requirement also applies to vehicles used for infrequent periods - such as one day.
http://www.ncass.org.uk/content/informatio...enses.aspx
Thus all those burger van outfits will need an OL. Note reference to "OR" hire and reward, not just H&R Tony
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| 8th Oct 2011 6:37 pm |
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dantheman
Member Since: 12 Mar 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 1728
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Thanks for that Rugged - its got me worried that my insurance now is not up to scratch because it doesnt cover me for hire or reward and just materials in connection with my business, and based on yr info I need the hire and reward bit as well regardless of the need for an o license or not!
I wonder which business would still get the small trailer exemption as most businesses are there to make money and sell something be it labour, goods or services.
This is an eye opening thread for those of us that are self employed and i'm keeping my eyes are pealed!! 
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| 8th Oct 2011 7:47 pm |
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desseardo
Member Since: 03 Jan 2010
Location: Somewhere in Suffolk
Posts: 125
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Looks like we are  . Our small family business operates three sprinters, all of which occasionally tow a fairly large brenderup trailer behind. We also have a 7.5 ton Mitsubishi Canter which we had to jump hoops to get the O license. This is all we need!
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| 8th Oct 2011 9:38 pm |
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THFC
Member Since: 01 Sep 2010
Location: Biggin Hill
Posts: 743
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| Re: NEW LAW REGARDS D3/D4 TOWING AS OF 4TH DEC 2011 |
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ruggedpeak wrote:Thus all those burger van outfits will need an OL. Note reference to "OR" hire and reward, not just H&R
Well unless you can class it as being a showmans unit which is possible, you will have to go for the Restricted Operators Licence which is what i am going to have to do now......It's bad enough having to pay f g ridiculous rent to get onto a festival to cater now we're getting screwed for something else.........It's getting to be a f g joke now  PRIDE OF NORTH LONDON
AUDERE-EST-FACERE
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| 8th Oct 2011 9:42 pm |
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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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I wouldn't object to OL on principle because it's essentially a good idea, but does it have to be so damn expensive?!
Financial standing is the most ridiculous bit for me - 8 grand in the bank to repair a van that might have only cost you half that.
And I'm sure that £8k would improve the safety of whatever you do buy. Less likely to have defects on a £12k van than something on a budget because you need money sitting there doing nothing.
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| 8th Oct 2011 10:06 pm |
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ruggedpeak
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
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dantheman wrote:Thanks for that Rugged - its got me worried that my insurance now is not up to scratch because it doesnt cover me for hire or reward and just materials in connection with my business, and based on yr info I need the hire and reward bit as well regardless of the need for an o license or not!
I wonder which business would still get the small trailer exemption as most businesses are there to make money and sell something be it labour, goods or services.
This is an eye opening thread for those of us that are self employed and i'm keeping my eyes are pealed!!
Dan - no, your insurance should be fine. As long as you have told your insurance EXACTLY what you do and how you do it you will be fine. Check with them but they will regard H&R as a minicab/minibus thing. Obviously if you are carrying passengers then you might have a problem  Don't tell them you do hire and reward unless you are carrying passengers. If not then you just need the relevant business use/cover for whatever it is you do, and be very clear on whether you move your stuff or other peoples'.
It is very confusing, but there is extensive discussion on this if you goggle it.
In simple terms:
As long as you spell out (in writing) exactly what you do, how you do it and for who, to your insurers you should be covered.
You need Hire & Reward codes on your driving licence (e.g. 101 next to the D code) for minibus/minicab activities of certain types/sizes. Commercial vehicle driving is covered by other codes.
For commercial vehicle regs and OL's, Hire & Reward refers to nearly all commercial activity, so the relevant Traffic Management regs apply.
Simples. Not. Tony
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| 8th Oct 2011 10:28 pm |
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ruggedpeak
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 1625
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| Re: NEW LAW REGARDS D3/D4 TOWING AS OF 4TH DEC 2011 |
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THFC wrote:ruggedpeak wrote:Thus all those burger van outfits will need an OL. Note reference to "OR" hire and reward, not just H&R
Well unless you can class it as being a showmans unit which is possible, you will have to go for the Restricted Operators Licence which is what i am going to have to do now......It's bad enough having to pay f g ridiculous rent to get onto a festival to cater now we're getting screwed for something else.........It's getting to be a f g joke now
To quote the Nationwide Caterer's Association
Showman’s goods vehicles
Showman’s goods vehicles are exempt from the requirement to hold an operator’s licence, if they are classed as showman’s goods vehicles for the purposes of paying vehicle excise duty. This is because the exemption from the operator’s licensing system is linked by para 3(2) to part 1 to Goods Vehicles (Licensing of Operators) Regulations 1995, to the definition of showman’s goods vehicle in Section 62 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. This is defined as a goods vehicle that is permanently fitted with a living van or some other special type of body or superstructure, forming part of the equipment of the show of the person whose name is registered under the 1994 Act. It must also be a vehicle registered under the 1994 Act, in the name of the person following the business of a travelling showman and where he is the sole user of the vehicle, for the purposes of his business and for no other purpose.
Whether or not a catering vehicle used at shows and festivals could be classed as a "showman's" goods vehicle would be ultimately for a Court to decide. However, in our view, catering vehicles are very unlikely to be exempt from goods vehicle operator licensing under this category. Tony
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| 8th Oct 2011 10:31 pm |
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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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The exemption list makes interesting reading.
http://businesslink.org/bdotg/action/detai...=RESOURCES
You're fine so long as the vehicle is under 2040kg unladen (Freelander?!)
Also on the list - passenger carrying vehicles and vehicles with a winch. Which has the potential to excuse most of us.
Having said that, I'm not even sure whether that information is current or accurate, or whether my interpretation is accurate. I would imagine it isn't.
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| 8th Oct 2011 10:47 pm |
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gsr341
Member Since: 30 Sep 2010
Location: north wales
Posts: 72
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on the exemption list is duel purpose vehiclels , inc ALL landrovers ,range rovers etc ? so maybe we will be ok any way ?
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| 9th Oct 2011 12:05 am |
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Ian G
Member Since: 18 Aug 2011
Location: Merseyside
Posts: 71
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The contradictions contradict the other contradictions. Nobody knows.
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| 9th Oct 2011 12:07 am |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Just to put things a wee bit in to context:
1) EU 1071/2009 takes presidence over Goods Act 1995 which is being re-drafted as we speak in readiness for Dec 2011 and is EUROPE WIDE
2) VOSA & DSA are presently agreeing with DofT regards fines/formal warnings that will be issues after 4th Dec 2011 of which there MAY be a bit of time after the deadline but this might be accompanied with a formal warning letter/action at the roadside by VOSA if you are caught, which might prove a bit of a headache when you apply for your OL as such notices will have to be declared
3) Any current existing legislation regards the application process for an O Licence will stand until after 4th Dec whereby the process will become easier and more cost effective as outlined in the public consultation document found as a thread at the top of this post
4) Within the legislation are a number of changes to the manner in which a TM duties are discharged of which fundementally the TM can only be so for a max of 5 Licences and a max of 50 vehicles
5) Any CURRENT EXEMPTIONS that apply today MAY NOT APPLY after Dec 2011 including showmans vehicles etc etc
I have emailed the DSA regards EU Drivers CPC now that such previously excluded vehicles are over the 3500kg weight limit and might mean that the driver of such a vehicle may need to also complete 37.5 hours training by Autum 2014 and every year thereafter and will post the reply 
Best advice, please read the links at the top of this post to better make yourself aware of what and whether such changes may apply to you in any format. If you think you are a boarderline case, please contact VOSA or dofT for clarification but personally I would not hold out alot of hope that those at the end of the phone know little as to what yer talking about (as I have already tested for myself) 
LATEST REPLY FROM Dof T:
Mr James,
The new Regulation has primacy over domestic legislation. We will shortly be laying domestic law that brings the 1995 Act in line with the EU law. This will abolish the existing small trailers exemption for hire or reward operators.
Those using Restricted licences that are not operating for hire or reward can continue to use the small trailer exemption. The general issue of whether a licence is needed at all depends on whether the vehicle(s) is being operated for a commercial purpose. If it is, then an appropriate licence is required. I attach a guidance booklet which explains the core rules.
We are discussing the issue of enforcement with VOSA now. Operators that need to apply for licences or make changes to existing licences as a result of the new EU law will be given the opportunity to do so.
Steve Blackmore
Operator Licensing and Roadworthiness Division
CURRENT GUIDE DATED OCT 2005
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/10%20157a.pdf
Last edited by character on 9th Oct 2011 12:43 am. Edited 1 time in total
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| 9th Oct 2011 12:38 am |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Ian G wrote:The contradictions contradict the other contradictions. Nobody knows.
case of not reading this thread thoroughly then Ian, best take time to digest rather than pooh pooh
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| 9th Oct 2011 12:40 am |
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