MARKW
Member Since: 29 Aug 2008
Location: SW
Posts: 2390
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I went through the same problem 6 months ago. I ended up phoning the DVSA/VOSA. They gave me the number of a mobile officer. I called her and she gave me chapter and verse. Cleared up all the questions I had. The best thing is she gave me the answers from a person on the gound rather than a pen pusher in an office somewhere.
Getting caught without a tacho is an automatic £300 fine. No leniency or discretion. But it's not an endorsable fine which means no points. HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE
They shall not grow old as those of us left grow old. Age shall not weary them, nor the years condem. At the going down of the sun, and in the morning WE WILL REMEMBER THEM
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 12th Jan 2016 11:49 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
 
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A tacho is the least of my concerns as I only operate within 50 miles of my unit and my driving would probably total less than 3 maybe 4 hours at the most so as I read it I don't require one. Its the O license that is causing the grief.
Steve
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| 13th Jan 2016 3:21 pm |
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swift
Member Since: 21 May 2014
Location: Redcar Yorkshire Coast
Posts: 42
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You still need a tacho. You have commercial gain. Vosa will give you no choice and can take your tow car & trailer AND your customers goods. This is more critical than an O licence though both are needed.
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| 13th Jan 2016 6:02 pm |
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Carabraxis
Member Since: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 221
 
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From what I have looked at you will certainly need the Tacho.
Re the O licence - and I stress this is my interpretation and not a definitive legal position - I believe that you will need a restricted O licence. This allows you to transport your own work. In your case the "work" is the painting.
This is where we got to. We retest, re-rectify and refurbish gas cylinders. A restricted O licence was all that was needed for us to run a fleet of 3 x 44 tonne vehicles and several 5 tonne dropsides even through the actual cylinders were owned by our customers.
Essentially the difference here is that you are not just providing haulage. You are collecting/delivering as a part of the service you are carrying out to the item.
The RHA (Road Haulage Association) is a good source of correct advice as well as VOSA. When I've spoken to them they seem keen to help you to get it right.
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| 13th Jan 2016 7:20 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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Swift and Carabraxis, thanks for the reply.
The reason for my earlier statement was a conversation I had with the AA recovery driver last night whilst taking my Disco to the dealer after breaking down  (Whole other story).
Anyhow, he mentioned that they were exempt from a tacho because of the radius within which they worked (100km). Happy days, I thought, did a brief bit of googling this morning and the first bit of pertinent info I came across said something along the lines of..."because the combined train weight was below 7.5 tones and I was only driving within a 100km radius and driving wasn't my main job I was exempt". I am sure the website had a VOSA heading as well but couldn't swear to it.
After yet more googling tonight looks like the reason the AA (and other breakdown services) are exempt due to the design of their vehicles. I also found these two websites, the first one is a flow chart on the NTTA, the second is off of Gov.uk and I have cut and pasted the relevant info under derogations. Both are open to interpretation on the reason for my load, as far as I can see it I am carrying equipment/machinery for use in the course of my work, I use the car to design and fit paint protection film templates, this generally cannot be done at the dealership due to space limitations and working environment at the dealerships.
http://www.ntta.co.uk/images/tachograph_chart_l.gif
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syst...europe.pdf
Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes that
are used:
u by universal service providers as defined in
Article 2(13) of Directive 96/67/EC of the
European Parliament and of the Council of
15 December 1997 on common rules for the
development of the internal market of community
postal services and the improvement of quality
service to deliver items as part of the universal
service; or
u for carrying materials, equipment or machinery
for the driver’s use in the course of his work.
These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 km
radius of the base of the undertaking and on the
condition that driving the vehicle does not constitute
the driver’s main activity.
This would apply to tradesmen such as electricians or
builders carrying tools or materials for their own use.
Just found the original website, its about the widening of the radius from 50km to 100km.
https://movingon.blog.gov.uk/changes-to-ta...-journeys/
I am fully aware of the penalties of falling foul of these rules although appreciate the warning and that is why all the head banging now before I commit, the last thing I need is having a conversation with a customer about the new custodians of his P&J. 
Looks like ultimately it's going to be all up to interpretation of the law. Fitting a tacho is no real problem, if I have to then so be it but having spoken to a few 'one man bands' like myself they all say that the pain in getting an O license is not worth it.
Bearing in mind that I am chief cook and bottle washer and rider of the smooth handled broom can anyone who has the O license comment on this.
Many thanks again
Steve
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| 13th Jan 2016 11:15 pm |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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Can you not drive the cars to your base?
Get a small foldable elec bike or a small moped that fits in a suitcase. Ride to them, chuck bike in boot & drive back.
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| 13th Jan 2016 11:21 pm |
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waterbuoy
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2880
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I was also researching this today, and the gov web site states the following in which it says that Passenger Carrying Vehicles are exempt. Is that not what a D3 is classified as (in none-commercial configuration)?
I was stopped in Germany a couple of years ago towing an exhibition trailer, but even then the Polizei agreed that I was exempt from the EU version of the regs as the 110 SW I was driving was designed to carry passengers.
10. Exemptions
You don’t need a goods vehicle operator’s licence if your vehicle:
was first used before 1977, has an unladen weight of 1,525 kilograms or less and a maximum gross plated weight over 3,500 kilograms
is using public roads for less than 6 miles a week whilst moving between private premises belonging to the same person as the vehicle (if the vehicle’s used for excavation or demolition it doesn’t matter who it belongs to)
is being used on trade plates
is a passenger carrying vehicle
Read the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) guide to operator licensing for goods vehicles for more information and a full list of exempt vehicles.[/i] Currently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
Previously:
TD5 Defender 110 CSW (230k miles)
300TDi Disco 1 (289k)
4 RR Classics (300-350k each, 2 manual, 2 auto)
110 V8 CSW (220k)
S3 109 hi cap pickup (ex RN)
S2A 88 Safari SW with lpg conversion (bloody lethal)
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| 13th Jan 2016 11:24 pm |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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Justme, I can and do the cars from the local show rooms (5 miles or so) but the idea of my product is that it protects the paint from stone chips and the combination of risk factors (including the other muppets on the road lol) and mileage added to the new vehicles not to mention their values makes this a non starter
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| 13th Jan 2016 11:38 pm |
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swift
Member Since: 21 May 2014
Location: Redcar Yorkshire Coast
Posts: 42
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The AA breakdown is job specific for breakdown recovery only, again different rules apply. If AA was transporting to a destination ie AA relay then tacho does apply.
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| 14th Jan 2016 1:30 am |
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minty
Member Since: 04 Jun 2012
Location: Romford
Posts: 21
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It was AA relay and obviously the transporter was a hefty bit of kit (way over 7.5 tones) to carry my tank, but because it is designed as a recovery vehicle and stays within the 100km radius and doesn't need a tacho under the 'local journey' rule.
Steve
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| 14th Jan 2016 2:04 am |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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The under 100km exemptions does not apply to everyone or every circumstance.
Its conditional on it not being haulage / courier type work.
Even moving it 100 meters can need tacho & O licence if its haulage.
I wonder if the OP would be better off with a flatbed vehicle. Find one under 3500kg MAM that can carry the curb weight of the vehicles they work on.
Or just pay someone to move them for you.
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| 14th Jan 2016 9:40 am |
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Canburne
Member Since: 15 Jan 2013
Location: Devon
Posts: 2030
 
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I'm fairly sure I'm alright but am getting a bit concerned. I use my D4 to tow an IF lightweight trailer about 500kg unladen which has three traps permanently mounted, plus batteries, electrics, stands, posts etc etc which probably amount to 1000kgs. The car is then loaded with ammo, clays, shotguns an kit. The sites I go to can be more that 100 km away. I am paid for the shooting so I am being rewarded but I am not selling any goods. I beleive I don't need OL or tacho ..... .
"the inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings....the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" Winston Churchill
2016 D4 Landmark Club Waitomo ...or is it Club Tempest????
2015 D4 HSE Aintree Green
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| 14th Jan 2016 10:54 am |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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You def need a tacho.
You need B+E as well.
You are over 3500kg GTW (your trailer MAM & D4 MAM added together not the real weights), you are traveling over 100km radius, you are doing so commercially.
Under 100km radius you do not need one as the kit carried is for you to use in the course of your work. That exemption ends at 100km.
You might need an O licence.
Is the D4 over 2040kg curb weight?
Yes = need O licence
No = do not need O licence
Unless you can find exemptions that apply in your case.
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| 14th Jan 2016 11:30 am |
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Canburne
Member Since: 15 Jan 2013
Location: Devon
Posts: 2030
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Surely I am excluded ''vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum permissible weight of 7.5 tonnes or less that are used for carrying work equipment for the driver'' and I drive less than 4 hours in any day. I am licensed C1E 'You can drive vehicles between 3,500kg and 7,500kg carrying no more than 8 passengers and a driver with a trailer weighing more than 750kg and combined weight of vehicle and trailer can’t be over 12,000kg' .
"the inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings....the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" Winston Churchill
2016 D4 Landmark Club Waitomo ...or is it Club Tempest????
2015 D4 HSE Aintree Green
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| 14th Jan 2016 3:24 pm |
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Justme
Member Since: 09 Aug 2015
Location: Pwllheli North Wales
Posts: 104
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Licence is a red herring.
Re the C1E is that a pre 97 licence or did you take the test?
Pre 97 the total weight is lower at 8250kg. Also worth knowing that pre 97 cant supervise other C1+E (or C1 D1 D1+E but can B & B+E) drivers with L plates either.
The tacho limit for tools for the driver is 100km, as soon as you go over 100km that exemption no longer applies.
4 hours of driving is half a working day or 20 hours per week. Thats a driving job.
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| 14th Jan 2016 7:01 pm |
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