Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Topo Maps...
The idea of having the Navigation system integrating Topo Maps is a great one...
Technically, integrating some software which would enable the system to display Topo Maps is not really far fetched...
But the problem is the data...
As you said and as you pointed out by sending us those web links, there are some solutions available but most of those are not that accurate and that precise... A few days ago, a Canadian website posted the following : http://ccablog.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-ac...-maps.html This let you imagine what you can have for other countries !
The only comprehensive world topo survey ever made, that I know of, was done by the Russian/soviet at the heyday of the Soviet Union : http://jomidav.aldavies.net/SovietMaps/index.htm (The first two PDF files on this page make for very interesting reading !) I am quite sure, for having seen some, that the US Mapping Agency is probably able to provide you with a very precise map of anywhere in the world in next to no time, but unless you are serving in the "Big Green Machine", your chances of getting the map from where you wanna go are next to nil... But then again US Citizen money payed for those maps and there are some campaigns aimed at making that data free : http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/2006/08/free_the_maps.phtml
All the websites that you provided us are for satellite data and this is another story as they need work to be usable on systems like ours and with a precision that is worth talking about for our daily use... And who is going to do that work ?
Thus, again :
- apart from Tele-Atlas and Navteq, who are concentrating on Electronic road-mapping because that is where the money is right now (Selling their maps to second tier retailer like TomTom, ViaMichelin and all the seller of GPS nowadays),
- apart from Google Earth and its Google Earth (So full of mistakes as far as road and tracks are concerned that it is unusable "as is" outside of the western world),
- apart from governments who some time consider this data to be secret and akin to military data (http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/2006/08/ch...king.phtml),
who would do those maps ?
- You have to remember that even those Russian/Soviet Maps that I am so found of using where I am right now, are sometimes classified secret. Maps can be weapons or of national importance : http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/2006/08/to...ssue.phtml
- You have to remember that some countries don't let their data being exported by anyone else but their own Geographical outfit. Example, as far as I am concerned, I am still looking for topo maps of Iceland who would not come from the Icelandic Geographical institution. The above link about the situation in China is also of relevance here even though there might not be too many DIII in China !
- You have to remember that some countries (Like Senegal which I happen to know about a little...) have very old data-sets left over from their colonial period (In case of Senegal, maps which were done by France in the fifties...) and no money to overhaul those data-sets...
Look at those dates and at the blanks...In the case of Senegal, one or two data-set were overhauled by the Japanese under some cooperation agreement but it did not go that far as the above map shows...
- You have to remember that a complete set of map data eats up space like nothing else (150MB for the 1:100.000 Soviet Topo that I own for Georgia... And Georgia is not THAT big...), thus mapping the world in a worthwhile resolution would be costly space-wise. Ok, that might not be a strong point as the cost of storage is decreasing daily but still it points to a solution which cannot be global but regional and then you go back to the problem we have right now : most of the money is in the western world and those map would get done first but then what about let us say North Africa ? (A lot of European are trying out their "toys" over there...)
Thus there are quite a lot of arguments which allow me to say that I fear that what you want (And which I would be really glad to have !), is probably never going to come to DIII... I fear that even the DIV or the DV will have to wait for it ! or
That is why I am still "playing around" with my homemade setup and acting like a small scale Mapping Institution by making the map I need. This is a kind of DIY mapping that will still be with us for quite a long time ! It is time consuming, not always efficient (But you know who to blame... ) and quite complicated sometime (At least for a beginner like me...), but is also a very interesting part of the trip, I think...
So even though :
tlt wrote:
1. I want LR to develop a tilt sensor screen and a speed display on the unit.
That could be done... Hey, Toyota and Mitsubishi have had those tilt gizmo for a while and the speed display is already here in the Off-road software for the Denso system...
tlt wrote:
2. I want to contact LR with some ammunition that says either an overwhelming number of users want this, or
That might be true... And then again, I would be curious to know the proportion of DIII that will NEVER go off-road as opposed to the diehards like us. And it is ONLY the die-hards that might want this kind of setup...
tlt wrote:
3. I want developer or programmer information for the Navigation System so I can work on writing one.
That will not happen as the one in charge are Denso and Navteq... L.R is only a customer of those two other companies and they will probably NOT provide proprietary information which could help some rival company ! We are talking commercial trade information and that can be quite heavily protected !
So, I will not held my breath right now... And that is a shame, I agree with you !
BTW, I posted quite a number of link on that thread from that blog : http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/ I cannot emphasize too much how interesting that blog is for beginner like me ! You get to learn quite a number of things there and I really enjoy it !Georgia On My Mind...
3rd Sep 2006 7:20 am
Baben
Member Since: 15 Feb 2006
Location: Kyalami
Posts: 2059
The most frustrating thing about the LR nav, if you want to use it offroad, is that you can't load your own tracks and routes, eg. like we do on a Garmin. there are many 3rd party applications and maps available for all kinds of GPS, so is it really that far fetched to expect LR to provide some kind of interface into their otherwise excellent (for city nav) system.
the other nasty surprise is that while there is a facilty to navigate to co-ordinates, unless there is an underlying mapset available, the system will not perform navigation at all. And as we have very crappy maps of SA, and when asking LR for maps of elsewhere in Africa we are met with giggles, we will be sticking our Garmins on the dashboard for a long time to come.
Interesting, though, and I am sure there must be similar elsewhere in the world, is tracks4africa. They have fairly good offroad data for a bunch of African countries, plus you can contribute to the good of all and upload your own points and routes. the maps are really cheap too. Have a look http://www.tracks4africa.co.za/
(not affiliated in any way etc.)
3rd Sep 2006 7:49 am
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Interesting link...
I guess that this will help create VECTOR maps for the Garmin...
I will look into it and maybe later, I will try to upload there my tracks for Senegal. It seems that this country is not yet covered and thus I may help a little bit...
But even though that data can be used in the TTQV/PathAway system that I use (And the ability of using Garmin map data was ONE reason for which I choose it... ) it is not for common use on each and every GPS system... This data is not ready for the D3...
I agree with you that Garmin-like systems, like the GPS 276C are still here for quite a while ! But I do prefer the accuracy of my Palm Trèo 650/Seidio RBT 2010 over the one that the Garmin Geko 201 provides... I guess that I'll keep using it more and more and the Geko less and less...
Still, very interesting link ! Thanks a lot ! 8)Georgia On My Mind...
3rd Sep 2006 8:02 am
tlt
Member Since: 02 Sep 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 262
A Great Start
Wow, these last posts are great. I will say, that you all have taken a lot of time and effort, thought and care in your answers. I fear you are most likely right. Perhaps the only real way, is to create it ourselves. That being said, you still would need/want the widest available user base to be interested in the project, and to help, for example on a sourceforge project.
I would say, perhaps the 2nd suggestion, that of an interface, which is standard on most GPS equipment might be the more practicle solution for all.
With respect the the tilt gauge, I think, based on the fact LR advertises the prowess and ability, it might make sense, and be safer than judging the # of degrees you are actually leaning. That may be an idea we can sell.
All that aside, it seems that at least in the US, which is where I am stuck for now, that the defender will not be introduced, nor will the more fuel efficient non-petro models. It would seem most logical, for us "everyday" off roaders, that the Discovery 3 or LR3 as it is called in the us will be the standard for years to come.
I'm with Baben, I think it was remiss of LR not to allow upload of topo maps into the system, like I can with a $500 GPS unit.
Aussie topo maps are quite good these days, since various govt agencies have been doing their own work. Gone are the days when we had to rely on 30 year old declassified CIA maps!
As it is, the 'Off Road' Navigation in the Preium SatNav is a waste of time and effort IMHO. I've set up my PDA to take over the off road nav.
I would like to see a mod whereby, we can upload and download info to and from the LR SatNav.Have a nice day!
2010 Cayenne Diesel with PASM & Off Road Pkg
2005 HSE D3 (Sold)
7th Sep 2006 7:43 am
captain_sugar
Member Since: 05 Sep 2006
Location: Hradec Kralove
Posts: 1095
Topo maps are everywhere.
I have a handheld gps with topo maps for czech. Ready available in all shops.
And surely it is not "old but very accurate russian military maps" which I read here already twice. Mentioning this mistic comunist maps is probably good for image building....
To be honest, I thought, when ordering the off-road version of the navigation, that topo info would be on it. That's a basic for navigation.
And the tilt screen is unforgivable for LR to have forgotten it. You see on the screen differential locks, position of the wheels, turning position but no info about tilt angle?!
Last edited by captain_sugar on 7th Sep 2006 11:45 am. Edited 1 time in total
7th Sep 2006 8:18 am
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
captain_sugar wrote:
Topo maps are everywhere.
Really ? Show me some topo maps them ? And I said TOPO not VECTOR maps like the one NAVTEQ or others are doing... Sorry, but again, I think that you are mistaking VECTOR maps like the one that Garmin produces for example and TOPO which give you far more informations like for instance electrical lines, altitude curves, type of culture, forests, mine shafts and so on... You can find that on a VECTOR Map but that is very seldom except on some very high end GIS... And I don't think that I ever saw those on a Garmin map.
captain_sugar wrote:
I have a handheld gps with topo maps for czech. Ready available in all shops.
Ok... I would like to see a picture of the display... Take one, post it in your gallery and we will see if this is a topo (Complete and so on) or a vector map (Much simplified map of an area...)
captain_sugar wrote:
And surely it is not "old but very accurate russian military maps" which I read here already twice. Mentioning this mistic comunist maps is probably good for image building....
As for the "Old but very accurate Russian Military Maps", show me better and I'll be convinced... But, show me better for let us say Morocco or Georgia or Egypt... Then you will have a right to brag that you know better. But so far, I never heard of anything better and readily available than those Russian maps. If you know better, prove me wrong. Again, only the US military, and probably some other with much limited capabilities, are able to produce, on the spot, a map of wherever in the world wich can be used in the field "as is"... And it will not be perfect, no map is ever perfect... But are those maps available to you and me ? No way...
Thus, I stand by what I said, your best bet, if you want some map in a country where there is not good Geographic institute, is the Russian topo maps as a lot of seller are available and probably you will find something for the country you are looking for.
It won't be perfect, but it will exist...
One last note : ever since your first two posts you have been bitching about what a rip-off the Navigation system from L.R was as you cannot have it functioning in your country... I would suggest that with a little bit of research beforehand, you would have known that... But I understand that bitching is easier.
Have a nice day ! Georgia On My Mind...
7th Sep 2006 9:39 am
captain_sugar
Member Since: 05 Sep 2006
Location: Hradec Kralove
Posts: 1095
Chère Gurvan,
You are better informed about maps than me, that is clear.
For me is suficien what I have on the garmin, with TOPOLogical maps.
But to be honest, you do not need to be James Bond or Bresnev anymore to have access to good maps in this region.
During the planning of the construction of our factory, I saw many maps, completely up to date and detailed.
How to get them and how to get them in your disco, I leave up to other people.
Allez, j'espère qu'on se comprend!
7th Sep 2006 10:13 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
I suppose we're a little bit luckier in Australia. If you live in one of the more densley populated areas, you can get electronic Topograhpical Survey maps with contours to at least 20m intervals. In some cases down to 5m intervals.
These were very hard to obtain until relatively recently as the govt agencies discovered that they could earn a few dollars.
Where I am (no military significance) and in the more sparsely populated areas (ie about 70% of the country) such maps are almost non-existent.
Our Nav DVD is produced by a local company called Sensis, who have excellent detail for the cities and towns, but elsewhere all you get is brown.
There are some excellent desert mapping companies, such as HEMA, who actually drive the desert tracks and log them via DGPS; and then produce excellent, accurate maps. Not topo's, mind you, but it would be nice to be able to upload these into the system, or at least to be able to buy a DVD with them on that could operate with the LR nav system.Have a nice day!
2010 Cayenne Diesel with PASM & Off Road Pkg
2005 HSE D3 (Sold)
7th Sep 2006 10:24 am
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
captain_sugar wrote:
Chère Gurvan,
First of all, I am no woman... You can drop the "chère" for a "cher"...
captain_sugar wrote:
You are better informed about maps than me, that is clear.
I don't pretend to be better informed but to try and to do my research beforehand...
captain_sugar wrote:
For me is suficien what I have on the garmin, with TOPOLogical maps.
Then you are missing quite a lot... No Garmin map that I know of can be considered as good as a real topo map...
But if you are satisfied with what you have on a Garmin, then, by all means, use it... I'll stick to real topo maps, myself...
captain_sugar wrote:
But to be honest, you do not need to be James Bond or Bresnev anymore to have access to good maps in this region.
I hope so ! And I did provide you with some adress in that thread, and in others, where to find topo maps. Maybe you could provide us with some adress too ? I am always curious to learn more and knowing more dealers in maps is of interest to me...
captain_sugar wrote:
During the planning of the construction of our factory, I saw many maps, completely up to date and detailed.
Good for you... But where those maps the result of a survey made by surveyors on the spot of your factory (And for which your company paid as part of the service of using those surveyors...) or were they part of a larger scale set of maps ?
In the first case, you (Or your company...) paid for them... In the other case, then it is interesting and we could all benefit by knowing more about those maps and especially, their scale, their maker and so on...
captain_sugar wrote:
How to get them and how to get them in your disco, I leave up to other people.
Me too... Except that as I know that it is not going to come real soon, I do it myself using systems I know that I can work with...
captain_sugar wrote:
Allez, j'espère qu'on se comprend!
Pas sur... Pas sur du tout même... Mais pas grave...
JAMO :
I think that what you are saying is more inline with what TLT was aiming at... Unfortunately, there are next to no standards in that field or we are looking at standards from software in the 1.000$ range and then it is out of range for most of us...
This is why I think that Garmin (Even though I would not buy one right now...) or home-made rigs are still the only option...Georgia On My Mind...
7th Sep 2006 10:36 am
captain_sugar
Member Since: 05 Sep 2006
Location: Hradec Kralove
Posts: 1095
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Now, you are talking !
Thanks a lot...
I'll be exploring those links for a while... Georgia On My Mind...
7th Sep 2006 11:17 am
captain_sugar
Member Since: 05 Sep 2006
Location: Hradec Kralove
Posts: 1095
good luck! Language will surely be a problem.
Czechs are not bad in mapping but very bad in language.
7th Sep 2006 12:15 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
I do speak some Russian and some German... I might succeed in understanding what is of interest to me and if not, I do have some Czech colleague around where I am right now... Georgia On My Mind...
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But then again US Citizen money payed for those maps and there are some campaigns aimed at making that data free : 
And who is going to do that work ?
Thanks a lot ! 8)
which I read here already twice. Mentioning this mistic comunist maps is probably good for image building....
