Member Since: 27 Feb 2011
Location: Wilts
Posts: 1376
Gary_P wrote:
Hi Donknizi
Your findings are interesting and may help us get to the bottom of things. The details of getting to the sensor are included in LTB 00963 technical bulletin which is the recommended fix. It states that a foam insulator needs to be placed around the sensor to seal between the duct behind the grill and the face of the sensor fascia. The sensor is behind the instrument panel centre finisher, which I believe is in the location of the centre pop out tray under the heater controls (maybe someone can confirm).
Not sure how it is calibrated but have heard of people saying recalibration fixed it.
Would you mind sharing how you managed to find the internal sensor temp?
Keep us informed please.
I thought the internal temp sensor was behind the small grill to the left of the steering wheel?
26th Jan 2017 5:32 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
I had the same results with the internal temperature sensor and the dealer swapped the sensor. However this didn't work, so I then measured a 2010 and a 2012 MY D4 and they also show a much higher reading from the internal temp sender compared to the cabin. There is some sort of offset in the software to take this into account.
The odd thing is that my MY16 doesn't always exhibit the fault, but one thing which does make it happen is stopping for a short while part journey (i.e to refuel). Suddenly it will start blowing cold on restart. I have logged this on a GAP tool and it is not obvious what is causing it. I logged internal temp sensor, left/right blenders, left/right solar sensors on windscreen, external temp sensor.
I still think this is a software issue as the TSB 963 covers models back to MY14 which exhibit a different fault as a result of the missing gasket to the fault seen in MY16. I have asked whether it is possible to put older software into the HVAC system (i.e MY13/14) to see if this has an effect on the problem. IT just depends on whether there were any hardware changes to the HVAC system in later models as that might make it difficult.
26th Jan 2017 5:36 pm
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1519
Thanks Countrywide
More interesting info and not surprising given the fact that for most LTB00963 does not sort it.
Do your issues occur when in auto, ac or just blowers with neither set?Gary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
26th Jan 2017 6:53 pm
Criffel
Member Since: 06 Feb 2013
Location: Dumfries / Islay
Posts: 480
Dealer has now referred mine to LR for tech advice. They have had one previous with the same issue that they could not resolve. The dealer to date has been very helpful.Richard
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26th Jan 2017 7:14 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Gary_P wrote:
Thanks Countrywide
More interesting info and not surprising given the fact that for most LTB00963 does not sort it.
Do your issues occur when in auto, ac or just blowers with neither set?
It happens in auto or with the AC on/off. You can manually change things to improve it, but you still need to turn up the temperature.
My dealer has been very good, they haven't lost patience trying to fix it yet. Today they re aligned the foam just in case. I have raised it with LR CR as well. To be fair to dealer if there is no hardware component fault or new software there is very little they can do.
Be interesting if we can try older software for the HVAC.
26th Jan 2017 7:44 pm
Dudleydisco
Member Since: 20 Jun 2014
Location: York
Posts: 853
Don't know if this of help, but here is the soft/hardware version of a MY13:
HVAC-Ventilation (Update available)
Assembly (F112) CH22-18D493-AC -> CH22-18D493-AD
Hardware (F111) CH22-14D517-AA Up-to-date
Serial 2121204183717
Signal (F120) CH22-14D518-AA -> None
Strategy (F188) CH22-14D519-AC
...and here is a MY14:
HVAC-Ventilation (Update available)
Assembly (F112) EH22-18D493-AD Up-to-date
Hardware (F111) CH22-14D517-AA Up-to-date
Serial 2140416123656
Signal (F120) EH22-14D518-AA -> None
Strategy (F188) EH22-14D519-AE
Just bear in mind that the MY14 has rear aircon - the MY13 doesn't!
In general performance, the MY13 is much better than the MY14!D4 MY14 XXV - RLD/IID BT
D4 MY13 HSE Lux - RLD/IID BT
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110 - Even sadder parting
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26th Jan 2017 9:18 pm
donknizi
Member Since: 04 Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 21
Tanglewood wrote:
I thought the internal temp sensor was behind the small grill to the left of the steering wheel?
Indeed it is. I found some technical documentation on it but due to possible copyright issues I am not sure if I can publish it here.
The sensor is in principle a good construction with the ventilation system sucking cabin air over the sensor. Unfortunately one can feel that the console picks up heat from the air ducts so that it is a question of time operating before the sensor measures more and more the temperature of the heating system or radio.
In summer it might be the opposite issue if the ducts cool down the sensor area.
From my understanding there are two options: put a strong thermal insulation around the sensor or move the sensor further away from the heating ducts.
27th Jan 2017 1:06 am
Gary_P
Member Since: 03 May 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 1519
Thanks for clarification on sensor location.
Has it always been in this position? I ask because people with earlier models and esp. D3s suggest that they don't have the issue. Perhaps understanding the differences may help us understand the cause?Gary
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Discovery 4 HSE 2016MY
27th Jan 2017 9:39 am
Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6902
My March 2016 doesn't have the problem either, exactly the same as my 2012 oneJoined the BMWX5 45e group
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27th Jan 2017 12:30 pm
Tanglewood
Member Since: 27 Feb 2011
Location: Wilts
Posts: 1376
Gary_P wrote:
Thanks for clarification on sensor location.
Has it always been in this position? I ask because people with earlier models and esp. D3s suggest that they don't have the issue. Perhaps understanding the differences may help us understand the cause?
It was in the same place on the D3
27th Jan 2017 12:36 pm
wireworld
Member Since: 19 Oct 2013
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 145
Not sure about others but the side of the dash by my left leg gets very warm to the touch so perhaps there is an element of radiant heat also affecting the sensor. I wonder if the routing of heater pipes/ducts has changed in the later cars or even the actual dash build-up/materials resulting in more heat leakage. Equally, I'm not sure the sensor in the best place as in my car that area does seem to get warmest.
27th Jan 2017 1:23 pm
donknizi
Member Since: 04 Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 21
wireworld wrote:
Not sure about others but the side of the dash by my left leg gets very warm to the touch so perhaps there is an element of radiant heat also affecting the sensor. I wonder if the routing of heater pipes/ducts has changed in the later cars or even the actual dash build-up/materials resulting in more heat leakage. Equally, I'm not sure the sensor in the best place as in my car that area does seem to get warmest.
As I mentioned earlier already, this seems to be the biggest problem. Either heavy insulation or moving the sensor (but where? - gearselector?) would be the option.
27th Jan 2017 2:08 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Dudleydisco wrote:
Don't know if this of help, but here is the soft/hardware version of a MY13:
HVAC-Ventilation (Update available)
Assembly (F112) CH22-18D493-AC -> CH22-18D493-AD
Hardware (F111) CH22-14D517-AA Up-to-date
Serial 2121204183717
Signal (F120) CH22-14D518-AA -> None
Strategy (F188) CH22-14D519-AC
...and here is a MY14:
HVAC-Ventilation (Update available)
Assembly (F112) EH22-18D493-AD Up-to-date
Hardware (F111) CH22-14D517-AA Up-to-date
Serial 2140416123656
Signal (F120) EH22-14D518-AA -> None
Strategy (F188) EH22-14D519-AE
Just bear in mind that the MY14 has rear aircon - the MY13 doesn't!
In general performance, the MY13 is much better than the MY14!
This is mine
Assembly (F112) FH22-18D493-AA Up-to-date
Hardware (F111) CH22-14D517-AA Up-to-date
Serial 2160118084157
Signal (F120) GH22-14D518-AA -> None
Strategy (F188) FH22-14D519-AB Up-to-date
I promised an update following the application of the LTB963 and the difference (small) that it had made and the follow with our dealer.
The car was in on Monday/Tuesday and the dealer called me through Monday morning, which gave me the opportunity to talk directly with the technician dealing with the problem. He had also the technician that carried the LTB, so was good to be able to discuss the issue before and after that fix, the current staus of what we are experiencing and the timing of when the 'cold' air starts hitting us. At least I could say that the length of time had increased before we start feeling it. What the technician did say at this point was that the air appears to not be coming out of the face level vents in the same way before the LTB was carried out. It feels like the windscreen vent /side window vents are where the cold air is being delivered out of. I do have to agree on that point as it had been making my left eye water quite badly. So some improvement in that respect has been made, somehow!
Following a cool down of the car, they did go out for the length of time to see what they could feel (at least they state they did and I have no reason to doubt this). They did not feel the same issues as us in the 1/2 hour drive - so have asked us to now see if any of the interrogation checks they have done (although no faults found that way) have changed anything. As it is my wife's car and she dropped it off, picked it back up, we will need to go for a longer run again to see if it is still the same, which I expect it to be. On pick up, the temp was set at 26, where we have the system normally set at 21. 26 is way too high - should be driving in shorts and tee shirt if it was really that hot in the car!
During the discussion on the phone I did make the point that the 2014 model we also have at present (only for the next 7 weeks - boo!) does not exhibit this issue and that it is set at 21. As we have had a Disco3 and a Freel2 in the past, both with the automatic climate control system, we have never had the issue of this in any of the other 3 vehicles.
We are to be back in contact and arrange a time where we can take the technician out in the vehicle and demonstrate the issue of what we do and how we feel the temp is not correct - which I will gladly do to show what we are experiencing! Even if I have to have the 2 models to show the difference between the 2 directly, as they are prepared to look at another model - at least I have one that I can trust.
I don't know if they dealer can do any sort of calibration of operation of the system, in terms of temp sensor validation, modes of operation and speed of response to step changes. I think the solution of increasing the temp setting up is not acceptable - as it seems that after the period of time if blows the cold air again. I did my own check (set at 25 on both sides, me driving solo) prior to the car being booked in again - and it did boost heat and then settled down to the cold air again coming through. At the weekend past, we ahd a 2 way run, each leg being over an hour and the windscreen actually started misting up - heated screen shifted that fine, but again, that is not being experienced in the other Disco, so this is another symptom of what is going on.
Total surmise here - does anybody know how the adblue / DEF is fed to the exhaust system and if the new pipework may be interfering with a part of the HVAC system / air intake/distribution - as there is now more kit in there that was not present before, could this be affecting the standard of how the HVAC works? I know that the heating/cooling is provided by the engine coolant and AC radiator & heat exchangers prior to this, but where is it all located and does the DEF system affect it? Does anybody have ideas on that at all?
1st Feb 2017 8:53 am
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Still got the problem as well, but I can't see how Land Rover expect a dealer to fix it as it seems more than a faulty component but a design issues (software ?)
I sent Land Rover CRC a message and no response yet.
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The dealer to date has been very helpful.
