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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
  
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sorry for the delay...the source of your picture http://www.webcitation.org/5mseAE1Di
is an electron beam microscopy & if you look (realising fully & by your own admission you arent a metallurgist) at other metals (same site) you will see a similarity... "like coral"
the link you gave to the ESAB pdf is about welding cast irons......which is a particularly tricky thing to do.....welding any cast iron (regardless of make up graphites etc) isn't a production process but usually done to repair existing castings. The issue is method & choice of welding or filler rod & knowing the actual metal you are trying to weld. It can be done with some degree of success if a sample is taken, analysed & the type of cast iron determined. Over the last 6 years I have had to repair very large pieces of machinery made of cast iron & the two specialist weld repair companies have insisted doing just this before the significant preparations.
Even though this pdf mentions oil soak Neither company I regularly use consider this - the success of the weld depends on knowing the material, preparation of the weld area & the correct filler metal...+ a welder that is competent - these guys are used world wide for repairs of critical plant (boilers, reactors, process plant) & are in big demand (expensive). The last two large castings we have taken on were part of a large critical hydraulic machine so proximity to oil was there (actually under oil pressure) - no special work was required in either task as it it isn't an issue with the right process & questioning the guys & looking at the preparation (very deep gouging) didn't reveal oil soaking or take up.
My first apprenticeship was spent hand scraping cast iron slide ways on precision machine tools (Wm Asquith - Halifax) - creating super flat surfaces that were metal to metal - significantly hand scraping creates minute oil voids between the mating surfaces to retain oil lubricant. Further work on this was on development work for the hydrostatic slide way systems the company I worked for developed & patented. I did a lot of work in plant & at the Royce laboratory in Manchester Uni....there I was shown how friction reduced surfaces "work", the technologists there showed me a lot which I learnt from......especially how cast irons didn't take up oil. Notably this work got two guys involved their PhD's. I have mention in their dissertations & the patent's granted.
So sorry DG I fundamentally disagree...look back in the posts & you will see the one that suggests that early engine life oil consumption is partly due to oil soaking or being taken in to cast metals.
I do not smoke either -nasty, nasty habit
& the only habit I have is pursuing the DIPSTICK campaign ! BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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 2nd Sep 2014 10:36 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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OK Bruce..I'll write to the company and tell them they are full of  . To put this to bed, I agree that you can disagree   21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 2nd Sep 2014 10:45 pm |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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Robbie wrote:If you are pulling the dipstick out of a fresh running engine without giving time for the oil to migrate to the sump then I guess they had you in mind when they built in the time delay on the D4 display. You must wait for the oil to migrate back to the sump before you check the level. Please also note that oil expands with heat and the level will be artificially raised. Those with sticks are graduated for cold oil only.
The dipstick may be simple but it seems to have outwitted you; the manual contains the details on how it should be used....
Dear Robbie... last first again.
Fundamentally not outwitted - especially with a DIPSTICK
I have not only moved with the times I could read beforehand - especially the owners manual...after all DIPSTICK technology is my thing !
....the sensor system & the dipstick can be used cold (ambient temperature the vehicle has settled to - which varies a lot) right up to the running temperature of the oil (say 100degC approx).
If you really think about it the highest level of cold oil will be before you start the engine...the oil has had hours to run back, settle & accumulate in the sump.
agreed - when engine warm or hot it has to be left to drain back (even a pillock like me understands gravity & fluid flow dynamics) & it tells me this in the manual (which I have read)
so
Robbie wrote:...Those with sticks are graduated for cold oil only.....
isn't quite correct.
maybe a simple test....measure level of oil when cold & when hot & see what will the difference will actually be ? ...now reference books easily tell me the coefficient of expansion for engine oil (notably only given for clean oil)...OK it could be calculated but I would need to know the surface areas etc. so it may be easier & faster to actually measure it.
However realistically the sensor system on the D4 cant really do this it has "three lights"..so you cant "do it"...when I next have the opportunity I will do this for you & report back. The difference will be minute (millimetre wise) .....notably some engines have two sets of (dipstick) marks one for cold & would you believe it one for hot...so pillocks like me are totally catered for.
I'm puzzled btw....your avatar shows you with dirty hands...you haven't been dipping oil with a dipstick have you ?
Regards & happy dipsticking...
Bruce the DIPSTICK champion BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 2nd Sep 2014 11:01 pm |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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DG wrote:OK Bruce..I'll write to the company and tell them they are full of . To put this to bed, I agree that you can disagree
happy dipsticks !  BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 2nd Sep 2014 11:02 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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Bruce just to clarify ... I can understand that you may wish to quell the viewpoint of a layman like me ....but you are saying that the foremost welding companies in the world doesn't know what it's talking about. 
http://www.esab.com/global/en/ 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 2nd Sep 2014 11:09 pm |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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I thought a couple of posts back we'd agreed to disagree - or you'd agree that I could disagree...but overall we didnt agree....? - that I have to agree with & maybe you agree too..if we both disagree & agree to disagree - then we have an agreement about a disagreement...Agreed ?
....you put the ESAB web address up & linked to a picture of cast iron (& its not quite definitve what grade of material this is / was) - the pdf document was about repair welding of cast irons in general - a broad subject for what can be a complex, not fully understood & problematic procedure. You have to decide the use of the casting after its ben repaired & whether the weld reapir is going to give good service....sometimes good as stop-gap measure allaying the need major stripdowns & stopages but usually accapeted as a stopgap measure. Ther are other ways of repairing cast iron...the uusual one being metal stitching as it doesnt involve heat & taking parent metals to a melt point & gest around any parent metal casting faults - like porosity...porosity is seen as a casting fault as opposed to a metal deficiency or attribute.
...we on the other hand were discussing an engine block casting of Graphited Iron..this isnt a graphite casting...its just describing the part of the familiy of cast irons its related to...brilliant material as regards material & process properties, stiff & stable, capable of being cast into complex nett shapes, can be readily machined (some grades of cast irons become pot hard) & provides all the attributes an engine block should have at a cost that is realistic...a good example of how a version of traditional material is well used.
Going back to the word agree....we both agree or differ opinion that the amount of oil that this casting could "wick" up is either negligable or not there at all...in the terms of seeing whether there are litres there or no there...ie dip or sensor check the oil level & its a huge surprise theres either little or none there or responding to the cure for this - too much oil in there. That was the theme of the thread - some users being surprised that the oil consumption appeared to be larger than they though it would or could be...compared to other vehicles & at other engine miles stages...all a bit subjective...lots of conflicting variables. Personally with a new vehicle of any make I am attentive to monitoring fluid levels until I am used the vehicle & it settles down...my 4 month old VW Golf has about 9.5 k miles on it & the oil level has gone from max (at engine operating temp & oil temp of 100degC) to just above half way...so I have according the well read, (over complex) handbook half a litre of the provided oil to add. The VW book states one minute wait before re-dipping at operating temperature....OK.
Some check thier oil level (by the means fitted) & some don't - its up to them entirely....I fall into the check it regularly camp...so for me there are no surprises or pending disasters....ok once every week my paws get a bit grubby...but they will be a bit grubby if I have to add oil check tyre presures with a guage etc etc thats all part of vehicle ownership.
Have a Good Day ! BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 3rd Sep 2014 7:49 am |
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steveraspberry
Member Since: 18 Sep 2011
Location: Nr Sevenoaks,Kent
Posts: 2081
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Robbie wrote:Again, the 10 mins is not to sort itself out, it is to allow the oil to flow back to the sump - just like any other vehicle. The only additional feature with the delay is that it stops the end user from taking an erroneous reading should they not understand that it takes a while for all the oil to migrate to the bottom of the engine.
With the D4 system you can, if you wish, check the oil level before the engine is started. The level is reported to the driver just as fast as you can press the buttons - no delay at all. As this reading will be with the oil cold the measurement is not as precise but you can still get a level displayed.
I am at a loss as to why you cannot see that the D4 offers everything a stick can but with a feature to stop false readings, a feature to decide on exactly what top-up is required, a feature to enable accurate hot readings as well as instantaneous cold readings, a feature that allows clean hands and no rag requirement and a feature to provide a dash warning if the oil is too low. The humble stick has none of these features and on the D3 the stick is hardly robust or user friendly!
Robbie, I believe that the new In Car Apps function on the MY15 is capable of doing something similar. You can check fuel levels etc via an app on your smartphone. This is based on the last known readings from the last time the car was switched off. Not sure if this includes oil but I bet some smart app writer would ben able to update things with all those levels before long. Technology rules !  My17 Volvo XC90 Inscription
MY15 Mitsubishi L200 Barbarian
RGK Tiga Fx Wheelchair,
Large Alsation called Abbs
Medium blue Staffie called Piglet
Medium Alsation called Bailey
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| 3rd Sep 2014 7:58 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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BLFarrar wrote:I thought a couple of posts back we'd agreed to disagree - or you'd agree that I could disagree...but overall we didnt agree....? - that I have to agree with & maybe you agree too..if we both disagree & agree to disagree - then we have an agreement about a disagreement...Agreed ?
Yes I agree
Trouble is ...what we have been left with is my independent evidence ...and your opinion.  
If you wish to make your case compelling Bruce ...at least provide some 3rd party evidence
I will then bow down for evermore 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 4th Sep 2014 8:24 pm |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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On what aspect of the thread / subject ?
to explain:
I will conduct tests of how much the oil level alters cold to hot in millimetere terms on my D3 - which can only be done ona dipstick equipped vehicle.....that is local ambient of about 20degC to engine oli working temp of about 100 degC.
The matter of the Cast Iron engine block...I believe the ESAB document refers to actual & percieved difficulties in welding cast iron (I just dont know whether you have ever tried to do this on anything)...sadly I have had to in my job & the result had to be more than cosmetic...structually restored & abble to withstand hydraulic oil pressures, low presure steam & liquid (condensate water & oil) containment at no pressure.
My experience with working with cast iron (generic term) is quite different - by working I mean: machining, finishing, adhering wear materials (Ferrobestos, Copperbestos & Wulfradul) to it with a whole range of adhesives (all very critical to surface & substrate) & using many forms of lubricant to create boundary & fluid film lubrication + indusrial hyrostatics (floating large masses (75tonne) ona fine film of oil. All of which are critical of oil take up (if any).
This is quite different to the Cast Iron engine "block" in use...I use the term cast iron knowing that the family of iron that the LR/JAG/Peogeot/Ford block is made from is termed "graphited" - not a graphite casting. Any engineering reference book will describe the family's of Cast Iron (I use the 28th Edition of Machinerys' hand book - (hard copy) notably (the SAE website has lots of data on this)
I dont know just what access you have to referenece & technical data (like access to the Britich Library, SAE & ANSI documenation...some can be seen on line & some cant (hard copy only)..so I am going to pursue this & get data....using the resources I have access to (through the OU the Britsh Library, SAE as I have been signed in there for some years, ANSI - as I can get papers through working for a company that has acess iso/en/BSS data. I have also a link to the Intstitute of Materials Science at Manchester University...as we use thier resources for technical aspect of materials testing where I work. Also Sheffield University same sort of links. Some but not all comes in pdf form that is resticted to view not print / save / transmit. We are audited as to what copie we make & the distribtuion / dissemination of data & publications (numbered copies)
So....Am I right in saying (or thinking) you contend that cast iron (as a generic material) takes up an amount of oil...I contend it doesnt ? Specificaly the reference made higher up in the thread that this oli take up would significanty allter & affect actual oil level..which we both realise & know isnt so....we are discussing if there was oil take up by the casting it would be either slight or not at all. (to get the context just right)
So effectivley I have to prove to you that CI doesnt take on or wick up, soak oil - with 3rd party proof ? BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 4th Sep 2014 8:35 pm |
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CUCO
Member Since: 26 May 2011
Location: Spain & Oleee!!!
Posts: 609
  
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AFAIK, the D4 have live oil level metering when engine running, with the apropiate equipment you could see the in litres how much oil is in the pan.
But this capability is not allowed in the the drivers display (that is live too, but when 10 min counted after engine off. I could put oil in the engine and top it in small quantities and the display will adapt without needing going out and into the service menu.)
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| 5th Sep 2014 8:33 pm |
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gensetsteve
Member Since: 01 Jan 2014
Location: hampshire
Posts: 340
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I dont think the block is soaking it up. More like passing the rings, valve seals or turbo seal or all three. Most manufacturers will tell you 1 litre per thousand miles is within tolerance. I would say 3/4 of the vehicles I have owned have used a litre every 3,000 miles. D4
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| 13th Sep 2014 8:05 pm |
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stick
Member Since: 13 Jan 2010
Location: hants
Posts: 604
 
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I reckon mine uses 0.5L per 16,000 miles and that has been constant from new to 100k d4 HSE
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| 13th Sep 2014 8:32 pm |
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Hairy Dan
Member Since: 19 Jan 2011
Location: Co. Durham
Posts: 12319
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steveraspberry wrote:
Robbie, I believe that the new In Car Apps function on the MY15 is capable of doing something similar. You can check fuel levels etc via an app on your smartphone. This is based on the last known readings from the last time the car was switched off. Not sure if this includes oil but I bet some smart app writer would ben able to update things with all those levels before long. Technology rules !
Steve you are going to be disappointed, the system you are talking about is Incontrol Remote, the system on the MY2015 is only Incontrol Apps. Incontrol Remote or Incontrol Secure is not going to be available for the Discovery 4. You can download the Apps app  from here and to be honest it's a bit crap
http://goo.gl/glmR2Q Cheers Ian
--------------------
Club N.E.R.D.S
Kielder 4x4 Safari
Discoless
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| 13th Sep 2014 8:33 pm |
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grzesiul
Member Since: 11 May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 6405
 
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MY16 only shown me oil level once in service menu now it constantly shows not available???
any idea?
Greg
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| 6th Oct 2015 6:14 am |
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LiftedDisco
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 1002
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Greg
Have you had the car running when you go looking for the Service Menu and oil level? The car has to have been standing for 10 mins or longer (ie check the oil first thing in the morning) as if the engine has been run (or is running) the level will, as you say, show as being 'Not Available'.
Hope this helps... D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY
D5 Commercial - Handed back when I left that job…
D4 Commercial (2014MY) - gone
D4 Commercial SDV6 - Baltic Blue (also gone)
D1 300TDi... 2" lift, HD bumpers (both), detachable tow hitch, 9,500lb winch, 235/85/16 muds and plenty of other toys (gone to make way for the next toy...)
Smiles per Mile - Tornado Motorsports caged Evo 3... 100" Defender look-alike, with Range Rover running gear - all fully IVA'd and registered!
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| 6th Oct 2015 6:20 am |
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