Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26776
I'm going to sit on the fence here, and say that I miss my dipstick, but Robbie's statement is correct that it is more hassle I get an accurate reading from a dipstick. Ie I have to get out in the rain, open the bonnet, find, remove, wipe, insert, remove, check, reinsert a long oily bendy rod.
However, my D4 won't even contemplate me checking the oil until I have warmed it up, switched it off, let it stand for 10 minutes ( I could sit and watch TV or DVD but the battery nanny will say NO before the 10 minutes is up).
On my Series or my Defender, I can pull the stick whenever I want and I can see if it has oil. I know my cars well enough to judge how much oil it has hot or cold, just run or not.
1st Sep 2014 7:35 am
DSL Keeper of the wheelie bin
Member Since: 11 May 2006
Location: Off again! :-)
Posts: 73090
I'd be chuckling re posh D4s not having a dipstick but the D3 one is pretty useless. Maybe it was Ford getting us used the the concept of a useless dipstick so no dipstick is just a short hop away. Thing about a metal dipstick is you're not dependent on a sensor that will fail at some point, maybe not in the life if the engine but it will fail.
Interesting the oil checking system my last non LR car had was electronic but checked with engine running, had set up a one touch button & could do it at the lights. Not that it was in the manual but it also had a proper dipstick.
1st Sep 2014 7:55 am
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
BLFarrar wrote:
DG wrote:
Quote:
.the engine is bedding itself in the engine block & parts do not "soak oil up" in any way.
Its a graphite block Bruce so it will absorb oil
are you trying to tell me the cast iron engine block will absorb that much oil it will show on the level sensor ......
I'm trying to tell you it is a compacted graphite block that uses hollow beam structures ....it's not a conventional gray cast iron. I'm no metallurgist but it has long been stated that the graphite and micropores will absorb 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
In this case the driver received a low oil warning even though he had not made an effort to check the level.
Sounds like the system working as designed. A car with only a dipstick that had not had its level checked would have continued, perhaps to the point of damage.
BLF - I may have misunderstood you but you appear to think that the dipstick is 'fast acting' when compared to the oil sensor. If so you are mistaken as similar measures have to be taken to get an accurate reading on a dipstick.
I am pretty sure I could press the buttons faster than most could open the bonnet, find a rag, withdraw and clean the stick before replacing and withdrawing again to read the level.
Hurrah for the sensor!
OK you want to have a race to check oil level...
I will win with my dispstick D3 everytime....even with one hand
..it doesnt take 10 minutes to open the bonnet & withdraw said dipstick...
&
..I dont have to get the engine warm (which if the oil is low or high anyway is a distinct risk)
&
..the level reading is correct (unless the dipstick is broken ? or faulty ?) & shows the exact level...
&
...doesnt block out because of the flaky technology...10 to 20 mins is ridiculous
&
....doesnt need a system to check a system - a dispstick wont fail (unsless I'm corrected on here)...the failure is not looking at it.
OK old technology - but it works
OK you have to open the bonnet & maybe get wet if its raining
But if you have to add oil you have to open the bonnet anyway...or have they automated that too ?
Under the bonnet are washer fluid to fill, coolant & brake fluid levels to check....
Have the sensor but keep the dipstick...with both you have the best of both !
Dipsticks -v- sensor systems...no contest !BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
1st Sep 2014 8:04 am
dubbs
Member Since: 18 Apr 2012
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 3626
Yup... old tech all the way...
That's why F1 teams use dipsticks. MY15 DIY Black Pack (Better than factory and half the price!)
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1st Sep 2014 8:07 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
The 10 mins is not flaky technology; to get an accurate reading the oil is hot yet allowed to settle in the sump for the required length of time. The actual time it takes for the sound wave to travel a few centimetres through oil and reflect back for the speed/distance calculation is quicker than your oily rag. The system then tells you what to add. The markings on the D4 display are accurate to 100ml which beats the guesstimating of where the oil is on a dipstick which is subject to the vagaries of oil sticking to a smooth surface and human interpretation.
I have no doubt oil level sensors will fail, but I have yet to see one yet and it didn't take long after the launch of the D3 to have quite a few failed dipsticks.
Move with the times - when I first started flying I had to clamber above a hot jet engine to check and fill the oils. Try doing that in poor light with wind blown oil, icing fluid and rain to contend with. Now I just flick some buttons from the comfort of my seat to take the levels at the right temp from shutdown and pump the oil from the storage system to the engine that requires it.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 20 Sep 2005
Location: Home and Happy
Posts: 6917
I check mine cold every morning before I start it - takes seconds. Not as per the manual but it's parked in the same place on same level so I get a daily consistent view if anything untoward may have occurred - sensor works for me.
And yes - mine drank oil for first 10k (as D3 did) - now stable at virtually nothing in between services.
The 10 mins is not flaky technology; to get an accurate reading the oil is hot yet allowed to settle in the sump for the required length of time. The actual time it takes for the sound wave to travel a few centimetres through oil and reflect back for the speed/distance calculation is quicker than your oily rag. The system then tells you what to add. The markings on the D4 display are accurate to 100ml which beats the guesstimating of where the oil is on a dipstick which is subject to the vagaries of oil sticking to a smooth surface and human interpretation.
I have no doubt oil level sensors will fail, but I have yet to see one yet and it didn't take long after the launch of the D3 to have quite a few failed dipsticks.
Move with the times - when I first started flying I had to clamber above a hot jet engine to check and fill the oils. Try doing that in poor light with wind blown oil, icing fluid and rain to contend with. Now I just flick some buttons from the comfort of my seat to take the levels at the right temp from shutdown and pump the oil from the storage system to the engine that requires it.
Robbie
Last things first - I appreciate your experience in looking after aero engines, being hot, poor light, weather - big respect for this important stuff........but this is a ground based road vehicle totally or most usually funded by its owner who wants to do a simple routine check. Oil level is a basic maintenance check. Nothing more.
Either system demands attention of the user...unless you wait for the critically low alarm...which to me is a bit of forgetfullness or sad negligence.
Then there have been a couple who have posted on here with failed sensor systems (& time will tell)...lets wait & see
The 10 mins of waiting for the warmish or hot oil to settle is the proper way to check oil - but there is nothing incorrect aboult checking it cold (as one D4 user on here does everyday)...the 10mins (approx) wait for the system to sort itself out & decide its ok to sense..if its waiting for oil to settle denies a fast reading when you need it most - when you need to drive or have an issue like think it may be too full or too empty.
The dipstick isnt smooth & its (to me at least) very easy to see correct oil, no oil or too much oil...vagaries no way if there's oil there it will stick......unless it soaks into the metal & plastic & hides itself away (like some think happens on Cast Iron).
Dipsticks - Simple stuff..no moving parts, no solid state electronics, doesnt need electrical power just a person who if he/she cant make a decision "shall I or shan't" I add oil probably shouldnt be doing this anyway. All families have 'em my SWMBO'd doesnt dip oil - depends on me or the filling station (if asked).
Robbie....I have moved & kept up with the times....I am involved daily with lots & lots of processor controlled industrial control technology (& have been for the last 40 years on large complex NC, CNC, DNC machine tools, marine engineering systems (steam & motor), process plant for making semiconductors, litho print machines & industrial robots...+ lots more) I welcome where technology takes the druggery out of mundane tasks & provides solutions to problems & more precise control of lots of things...but if its causing issues that confuse, with the potential to destroy kit (especially my kit I pay for) it has to be questioned - I question its worth, accuracy & advantage..plus the risks. I hate the lack of a dipstick on my XK - I have asked if the d'stick can be added back. Although I have a Degree (Hons) in Technology - I dont need this to check oil in an engine, its something my late Dad instilled into me as being the right thing to do check, check, check....when you findsoemthing not right you may prevent an expensive & inconveneint mistake.
What does concern me is flaky technology that is just accepted & put up with.....the level sensor on my 1983 - B27 engined Volvo didnt have to wait 10 mins to say low (not critical - just low) oil level...but it never got there as I used the dipstick at every other fuel tank fill. Basic stuff that took this & other cars I have bought, owned & used into mileages well over 350kon one vehicle. Simple KISS (keep it stupidly simple) maintenance.
Hence the indulgence below - you too can be a Dispstick hooligan....BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
1st Sep 2014 10:23 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Again, the 10 mins is not to sort itself out, it is to allow the oil to flow back to the sump - just like any other vehicle. The only additional feature with the delay is that it stops the end user from taking an erroneous reading should they not understand that it takes a while for all the oil to migrate to the bottom of the engine.
With the D4 system you can, if you wish, check the oil level before the engine is started. The level is reported to the driver just as fast as you can press the buttons - no delay at all. As this reading will be with the oil cold the measurement is not as precise but you can still get a level displayed.
I am at a loss as to why you cannot see that the D4 offers everything a stick can but with a feature to stop false readings, a feature to decide on exactly what top-up is required, a feature to enable accurate hot readings as well as instantaneous cold readings, a feature that allows clean hands and no rag requirement and a feature to provide a dash warning if the oil is too low. The humble stick has none of these features and on the D3 the stick is hardly robust or user friendly!
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 1002
OK... so now I'm going to get really contentious...
Every time, on start-up, I get a message about tyre pressure settings - I am not wholly convinced that I NEED to know every time that tyre pressures are set to a specific setting whereas it would be useful to have a glimpse at the oil level...
Can the display be altered in such a way?D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY
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1st Sep 2014 4:55 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
I've previously written about improvements LR should consider for the display. I think I likened it to my printer that displays all the consumable levels at switch-on. In my ideal world the car would give a similar display at start-up for all fluids (inc AC gas) together with battery state of charge. The Tyre Pressure Sensor thing has been forced on us by legislation and is a bit of a pain to be honest.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
.the engine is bedding itself in the engine block & parts do not "soak oil up" in any way.
Its a graphite block Bruce so it will absorb oil
are you trying to tell me the cast iron engine block will absorb that much oil it will show on the level sensor ......
I'm trying to tell you it is a compacted graphite block that uses hollow beam structures ....it's not a conventional gray cast iron. I'm no metallurgist but it has long been stated that the graphite and micropores will absorb
The hollow beam structure are the cast net shape to give it rigidity - not porosity or micro voids to soak up oil....look up the properties of cast iron even Wikipedia will state its properties which are quite wide for its many uses.
...any cast iron (graphite included) is one a range of a whole range of cast irons...fundamentally its a metal & doesn't soak up or absorb oil.....or any other liquid...water, coolant or fuel ..Please tell me where its stated - this I would love to read & study...then go back & put the data to those I know at the Institute of Materials Science at UMIST in Manchester. Their word on all types of materials - I trust. Implicitly. Thats where my materials science knowledge (that includes metallurgy) was taught & gained
But if you are still saying that a new engine will "soak up" oil to the amount (in litres) & it will add to the oil used by the normal function of the engine even in it's early life (i.e. pistons in cylinder bores with piston rings that have to bed in etc) & make it two litres - I do not agree.BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
....With the D4 system you can, if you wish, check the oil level before the engine is started.....
....then when its warm or hot you have to wait...which to me is a dud system.....a dipstick is instant & always will be...
Robbie wrote:
I am at a loss as to why you cannot see that the D4 offers everything a stick can but with a feature to stop false readings, a feature to decide on exactly what top-up is required, a feature to enable accurate hot readings as well as instantaneous cold readings, a feature that allows clean hands and no rag requirement and a feature to provide a dash warning if the oil is too low. The humble stick has none of these features and on the D3 the stick is hardly robust or user friendly!
- what false readings are there on a dipstick ?....it is a fundamental device the reading of oil level is what it is..an oil level......you wipe it re insert it then read it again - simple
- then the top up required is in the handbook the amount from low to high.....we have to assume they the user or vehicle maintainer can read, comprehend & actually conduct the test ...but that is the same as the sensor system......
- its not a feature (by design) that it the sensor can read hot or cold......it just does
- Clean hands ? - well if you have to add oil a finger & thumb may get a bit grubby - bit you are in a vehicle engine bay you have to expect that..
- a low level sensor isn't new but done so much more elegantly by other makers many years ago
The Dipstick may be a humble device - but it works if you want to use it & do use it - to check oil.....as per handbook maintenance regime
Dipstick robustness - its designed & made to dip oil - nothing less or more...you cant or should sword fight with it or clean domestic drains out...in normal use it won't wear out, break or fail to perform its designed duty - checking oil level...maybe just maybe LR may develop a dipstick that doubles as a Sword
User friendly - well its a simple task even my youngest daughter at nine could do all the under bonnet checks on both cars we had at that time & knew why they had to be done at intervals. Basic car maintenance knowledge that stayed with her.
sorry to continue the interesting diatribe on Dipstick but being a Dipstick aficionado its addictive
...but realise that my bring back the Dipstick campaign goes on
Regards
Mr Dipstick (aka Bruce)
ps what are your views on starting handles ?BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
1st Sep 2014 8:35 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
If you are pulling the dipstick out of a fresh running engine without giving time for the oil to migrate to the sump then I guess they had you in mind when they built in the time delay on the D4 display. You must wait for the oil to migrate back to the sump before you check the level. Please also note that oil expands with heat and the level will be artificially raised. Those with sticks are graduated for cold oil only.
The dipstick may be simple but it seems to have outwitted you; the manual contains the details on how it should be used.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
Re: DG...
BLFarrar wrote:
The hollow beam structure are the cast net shape to give it rigidity - not porosity or micro voids to soak up oil....look up the properties of cast iron even Wikipedia will state its properties which are quite wide for its many uses.
...any cast iron (graphite included) is one a range of a whole range of cast irons...fundamentally its a metal & doesn't soak up or absorb oil.....or any other liquid...water, coolant or fuel ..Please tell me where its stated - this I would love to read & study...then go back & put the data to those I know at the Institute of Materials Science at UMIST in Manchester. Their word on all types of materials - I trust. Implicitly. Thats where my materials science knowledge (that includes metallurgy) was taught & gained
But if you are still saying that a new engine will "soak up" oil to the amount (in litres) & it will add to the oil used by the normal function of the engine even in it's early life (i.e. pistons in cylinder bores with piston rings that have to bed in etc) & make it two litres - I do not agree.
Bruce, I've never said or implied that the block will soak up "litres" ...I, like others, have said that it will soak up some though
moreover if you look at the composition on a micro level you will see that compressed graphite iron is like coral in sructure ...in fact here is a picture
Now ...stick that in your graphite pipe and smoke it 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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Maybe it was Ford getting us used the the concept of a useless dipstick so no dipstick is just a short hop away. Thing about a metal dipstick is you're not dependent on a sensor that will fail at some point, maybe not in the life if the engine but it will fail. 
