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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
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| V8 Disk Upgrades - (not so) Important Note |
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Ok, so have been looking into the V8 Disk Upgrades that have been prevalent recently.
HOWEVER, A query came about when I had a discussion with someone who was so negative about changing the brake disks for the V8 disks. I couldn’t get it out of my head why he’d be so against it when it’s a perfectly valid mechanical mod to do. So then I thought about the consequences of bigger disks and having greater stopping effect and how the brains can control it.
So that set me thinking about how the Brakes would handle if the cars brains can’t tell that the brakes will be so much better when it needs to use DSC or HDC etc.
So, if using HDC with a car that has the std disks, the braking is progressive and the car knows what to expect. Now, IF the car had the V8 disks, the braking effect is that much greater than the car would normally expect, so the HDC would be coming on and off possibly too much and may throw the car into a wobbly or just keep locking up to much (it would be relatively safe as it would unlock by ABS as well when it detected it.
I thought that there must be a way for the car to tell what type of brake system it has (given the variants available). Under normal ABS braking, the car would detect if a wheel has locked & the ABS would work as usual by wheel speed sensors etc. Perhaps it could be more aggressive on bigger brakes, but general driving/braking should be OK.
So then what about HDC or other times when the car is just programmed to apply a certain braking force. If the brake grips too much due to the upgrade, then it could possibly affect the rest of the vehicle dynamics.
I put a shout out to get the original CCF (Car Configuration File) from the TDv6(used my own), the Petrol V8 and the Diesel TDv8 RRS to see what different settings each of the cars had. i.e. tdv6 vs v8 vs tdv8 brembo’s.
Thanks to The one and only Niklaus and to Colin @ BBS, I now have all of the CCF files needed to compare.
The CCF has a section on Wheels/Tyres and Brakes.
Specifically the description is :-
Front Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size
Also
Rear Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size
This is not to determine the wheel sizes in use (there is a separate section for that) but is used to determine (I assume) how much force is required or how much braking power is expected when it starts thinking for itself dependant upon the type of braking system in operation. Based on the CCF I have determined the following:-
The factory settings for the TDV6 are:-
Front Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size = 17â€
Rear Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size = 17â€
The factory settings for the Petrol V8 are:-
Front Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size = 18â€
Rear Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size = 18â€
The factory settings for the TDV8 Brembo braked are:-
Front Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size = 19â€
Rear Brake Type by Minimum Wheel Size = 18â€
So I come to the conclusion that these changes WILL affect the dynamics of the car (even if only in some small way that you may only tell when you need to rely on them the most) and if you have made the disk upgrades to Petrol V8 spec, I would strongly recommend that you get someone with a Faultmate to make these simple changes to your car.
I have not tested out the HDC on an upgraded car yet to see if it makes a difference, but when I upgrade to the V8 disks myself (When they next need changing) , I’ll be making this change.
Chalky, I'll change yours when you next come by 
BrummieDeano, Next Mids Meet
So there’s another thing to use the MSV2 for :thumbright: Bodsys Brake Bible
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Last edited by Bodsy on 23rd Nov 2011 8:47 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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 23rd Nov 2011 12:38 pm |
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chalky
Member Since: 21 Aug 2008
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 3145
 
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How did you manage to come up with that train of thought ?
Well done,
I will get the oportunity to test out my HDC whilst on a shoot in a few weks time, very wet slippery and grassy with the all important steep hilly stuff to test out the theory.
I,ve got to admit, if someone used to a standard set up TDV6 brake were to drive my car and apply the relevent stomping that the standard brakes require then that could result in a bit of a wobble,
When applied in ernest from 70 MPH they feel like someones just deployed a ground anchor............
Ive checked for lock up and TC on a slippery road but didnt even consider HDC, but as you can lay testament Ian my car NEVER ventures off road, Except for the Occasional Deer shoot once or twice a year.
Thanks IAn,
As you said, next time i pop by you can alter whilst i,m having my D4 BT Module enabled Only dead fish go with the Flow !
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| 23rd Nov 2011 1:20 pm |
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The Large One
Member Since: 20 Apr 2007
Location: Down the polytunnel
Posts: 6143
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Thanks Ian will make sure peeps are aware of this then if they approach me for the parts TLO has left the building.......
I no longer work for a Landrover Dealer
My little chilli sauce business http://www.thechillees.co.uk
if you would like to order anything just give me a shout
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| 23rd Nov 2011 2:49 pm |
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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361
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Would be interesting to know Nick if your lads can change this with IDS/Autologic or whatever it is they use. Bodsys Brake Bible
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| 23rd Nov 2011 3:22 pm |
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DG
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Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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Surely though Ian you can only make a conclusion once you establish the technical interaction between the various controls ....I mean after all stopping is stopping isn't it ? Is it identified to what extent the controls use braking force as an aspect of their role and if so wouldn't the parameters cover a range rather than a maximum force available by each brake set ? 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 23rd Nov 2011 3:30 pm |
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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361
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Stopping is stopping & the query only arose when someone was adamant that it should not be done as it would upset the balance of the car and it's dynamics under braking or ECU induced braking/stabilisation strategies.
Ive come to my conslusion based on the logic of why they would bother to have different sized options in the CCF if there was no relationship to the rest of the systems.
There certainly needs to be a live test (as yet not done) on a car with the V8 upgrade done.
The issue isn't with stopping, as you mention, that should be covered by all the parameters of various systems (including wheel speed sensors etc) it's about what happens when it's doing things itself.
The quick test would be to have a V8 upgraded vehicle do a known speed down a known steep hill and invoke HDC. see what the car does.... then change the settings and see what it does next time. Bodsys Brake Bible
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| 23rd Nov 2011 3:46 pm |
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DG
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Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
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Not trying to question your theory ...just better understand it 
Hypothetically... lets say as it stands DSC measured braking force on a scale of 1 to 10 and TDV6 brake max force was only ever going to be 6 ....and V8 say 8 .....then that would leave a positive parameter margin of 2. If the DSC was reliant on the specific CCF being correct but was left unchanged and the brake upgrade meant that the V8 applied a max force of 12 ......then I could well understand the concern that it might affect handling ect. Unless of course I'm not looking at this in the right way
It would be interesting to find out 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 23rd Nov 2011 4:02 pm |
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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361
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No that's all good
I think only the car engineers could tell us fully the difference, but your logic seems sound as well. Bodsys Brake Bible
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| 23rd Nov 2011 4:22 pm |
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Ade
Member Since: 26 Nov 2008
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 950
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Would changing the wheel/tyre size (if the rolling radius is different) effect the HDC ?
As it would knock the speedo out
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| 23rd Nov 2011 4:51 pm |
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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361
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In theory it could I guess, but in reality it doesn't as there is a wide tolerance already built in. There is a section to fill in your wheel/tyre size if you want to and the RRS TDv8 had it set, but the D3's didn't Bodsys Brake Bible
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| 23rd Nov 2011 4:53 pm |
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BBS SPY
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Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
 
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First of a very big thumbs up to Bodsy for figuring this out.
Due to our MSV-2 equipments very unique and powerful capability to read and decode the entire CCF (and i do recall when almost no one was familiar with that term) into it's many hundreds of elements, show the current settings and allow any of them to be edited as desired, even the ones not applicable to the Disco 3. It has become specifically renowned for it's ability to do quite a few quite simple enhancements like 4x4 info enabling. Once thought impossible. It has also allowed and inspired countless budding DIY owners to do varying degrees of physical upgrades.
Although i still think i hold the record for the most ultimate physical it allows to be done 
http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic37092.html?highlight=upgrade
But i truly believe that there is much more possibility to be yet discovered, and this certainly seems to be a case of that.
Sometimes the need for a CCF change may be so obvious as to be almost overlooked and as such Ade is quite right.
It's not theory at all, it's an absolute fact that earned me a speeding ticket. If you fit wheels and tyres with a different rolling radius as many do, many aspects of the vehicles electronics will of course no longer be correct, starting with the Speedometer, but also affecting the Auto Box, Engine Management, ABS, HDC, DSC, Terrain Response, Cruise control AFS, EAS (Height calibration), and even the Audio system.
Try this site out for an idea of how much it can affect things by
http://www.kouki.co.uk/utilities/visual-tyre-size-calculator
A simple rim change from 17 to 19 inch knocks everything out by nearly 20% which is surely more than a little food for thought.
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| 23rd Nov 2011 5:58 pm |
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Bodsy
Site Sponsor
Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361
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Ah well, it was a nice theory, but alas lacking in application......
So, tried to change my 'Disk my minimum wheel size' to 18 and it was having none of it. I can only assume something else linked to another module is causing the errors when I try this.
Back to the drawing board, but it was nice to have a challenge for a short while..... Bodsys Brake Bible
D4/D3 Remote FBH heat kits
BAS Remaps/ EGR Blank
Transmission Flush
Software updates/enabling
Clock/ SNOTM /3Flash / 4x4Info /BT Update /Service Reset/Error Codes / Gearbox Reset
See It Here
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| 23rd Nov 2011 8:50 pm |
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BBS SPY
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Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
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Always happy to spend a bit of time shedding some light on whats going on at the base level for anyone interested to learn a bit more about that sort of stuff chap.
Many have now heard of the CAN BUS and know that it links all the ECU's in the D3, and in fact there are two separate CAN BUS's on the D3.
However i guess few probably appreciate how a CAN BUS works and is actually used and it's really all very clever IMHO.
I won't go into the nitty gritty of the Bus's bit by bit message loss less arbitration mechanism, but every 10 Milliseconds, give or take a microsecond or two, The ABS will broadcast a message on the bus containing the current road speed, with a header designating what data the message contains that Ford keep very very top secret.
Even the CCF data is broadcast on the bus repeatedly, less than once per second. In fact the high speed bus can support over 2500 such broadcasts per second.
Of course there are some ECU's on the bus that don't care what the current road speed is and these will simply ignore that message, but those that do have any reason to care will take note and keep themselves updated by it.
The Instrument pack is an obvious requirement, but the IHU (Integrated Head Unit) which acts as a gateway from CAN to MOST also needs this data. Adaptive volume being one requirement, but TV shutdown by vehicle speed, Sat Nav relying on vehicle speed info when GPS is not available is but another.
I do not imagine for one second that even a 20% inaccuracy in the real road speed to that reported by the ABS would unduly affect these Audio system aspects to any degree worthy of note. But as you asked
Bodsy
Quote:having none of it
Can you elaborate more?
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| 24th Nov 2011 7:28 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
 
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can someexplain to me what the wheel rim size has got to do with things. As long as the circumference of the Tyre is the same, does it matter - or does the wheel speed sensor measure the revolutions of the outside of the rim rather than the hub  Duncan
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| 24th Nov 2011 9:20 pm |
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just reading with great interest and this caught my eye 
