Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18561
It's to do with cost Rich, as Paul says. A stop-start starter motor costs a lot more than a standard item.06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
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6th Aug 2009 10:06 pm
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
Paul P- they don't (yet). But the improved consumption figures that Stop/ start can provide under certain conditions will go towards lowering the overall vehicle range fuel consumption figures for LandRover as a manufacturer, quite necessary when some competitors ranges include city cars (think Merc ML in the range + A class, BMW have X5 & MINI, etc etc) I think manufacturers whose vehicle ranges exceed a specific average figure will face legislative penalties in the future. Plus it is a positive (and very quickly introduced) step towards proving to the general public that not all 4x4s are thirsty and wasteful.
Also s/s technology will hopefully help to persude buyers that a new FL2 is a better purchase than it's competitors, hence more sales.
17th Aug 2009 7:55 am
promitheus
Member Since: 04 Jul 2009
Location: Afidnes, Greece
Posts: 572
Since there is a tendency for the market to very low consumption figures, could that mean that a new D5 model, say by 2013, could make our D3/D4's look too outdated by then with great depreciation consequences?
17th Aug 2009 8:15 am
PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
Another thing that strikes me as slightly odd but I'm not 100% sure of my facts.
ISTR that the DPF is still an option on the FL2 S/S and has the potential to cut overall CO2 emissions (ignoring mpg for the moment) a lot more than the S/S system.....
So if LR really wanted to go 'green' with the FL2, why didn't they fit the DPF as standard?
I understand that they are expensive, but so are the other uprated bits and bobs needed for a S/S engine to work.
Also, DPFs are expensive as an option because:
a) they are an option and you pay far in excess of the manufacturing cost
b) they are currently not fitted as standard (and not many owners probably order them) so economies of scale come into play making them an expensive option.
So why didn't LR fit a DPF as standard? Cost? Or is it because a S/S system is more 'marketable' as a green and new/exciting technology rather than a plain old exhaust filter that's been available for some time.
Another thing that springs to mind is that, whilst LR advertise the S/S with the slogan 'My car emits 0g of CO2 whilst stopped - how about yours?', what they are really interested in is reducing urban fuel consumption (and by default a small amount of CO2s) rather than reducing a serious amount of CO2...
If you say that you have improved the 'economy' of a vehicle from 42mpg to 51mpg it sounds fantastic, but saying that emissions have been reduced from 189g to 158g probably wouldn't sell as well....2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE AutoBuckingham Blue 2007 Golf GT DSG
17th Aug 2009 9:14 am
MikeT
Member Since: 31 Aug 2008
Location: Lancs
Posts: 260
Regarding stop/start - presumably there is a minimum time required for each stop period in order to outweigh the starting cost (a starting engine cant be efficient as a running engine?, recharging battery, extra cost of beefier components) if it is truly to add benefit. I don't know what this period is, but guess it is quite short.
There are other technologies that are being researched by LR. I posted this thread a while ago, and was slightly surprised it didn't get any responses!
The two technologies have quite green credentials/ values. If they can translate this into anything successful for the production line or not will be interesting.
the KERS will obviously realize stored energy to assist get away, but more interesting is the transmission which is designed to keep the engine running at its maximum efficiency (constant rpm) and vary the gearing to achieve different road speed because it is continuously variable. The combination of these initiatives could significantly help the MPG figures and presumably the emission.
Last edited by MikeT on 17th Aug 2009 7:07 pm. Edited 1 time in total
17th Aug 2009 10:37 am
Martin Site Admin and Owner
Member Since: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 18561
Paul - DPFs don't reduce CO2 emissions 06 D3 SE / 15 LR D90 XS SW / 88 LR 90 Td5 / 68 BMW 2000 ti
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17th Aug 2009 12:39 pm
dick dastardly
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: wiggleigh bottom
Posts: 1112
Sounds like more bollux adding weight to the car that can go wrong (witness EGR). Just keep a smooth flow of traffic, easier than digging up Bolivia to make batteries for hybrids.
Brakes... don't use 'em, the D3 is more robust than other cars )There's one wheel on my wagon, but i'm still rollin' along, it's the cherokee, they're after me, but I'm singing a happy song
17th Aug 2009 12:40 pm
PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
Martin wrote:
Paul - DPFs don't reduce CO2 emissions
Doh
I think I must have got confused between CO and CO2 - I know that DPFs reduce one and actually increase the output of the other but I think I got them the wrong way around.
Anyway, the point still stands (sort of) ....by fitting DPFs, they would seriously reduce the amount of soot and nasty stuff released into the atmosphere that it actually very toxic to humans and wildlife.
This would make the FL2 much healthier to live with but is not as easily marketable as something with the magic 'CO2' or 'ECO' word in it....
It just makes me wonder how much of this 'holier than thou' marketing speel is actually aimed at making a real difference to the world or just what Joe Public will easily swallow in order to sell more cars and feel smug about driving them.
Thinking about what I said in the first paragraph, I suppose it's possible that, by marginally increasing CO2 emissions, this could be why they are not fitted as standard, even though they provide obvious health benefits that are probably more useful to mankind than a very very marginal reduction of CO2 output.2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE AutoBuckingham Blue 2007 Golf GT DSG
Forgive my sins by discussing the Prius on here.............
Basically the Prius is one big s/s system with built in KERS - it is just that the battery is big enough to power the car on it's own for a couple of miles (not much more whatever anyone says) and the electrickery in the gearbox allows it to take power from 2 different sources and combine it through a continuosly variable epicyclic to get going. Of ten I am stopped at lights for less than 10 seconds and the engine goes off, but I pull away with electric boost which gives the engine chance to restart and produce power by the time I am up to 20 mph.
As a piece of engineering it works extremely well, but it is noticeable in the full hybrid lexus's (or should that be Lexi?) the electric motors drive the non driven wheels (eg on the RX, the car is a petrol FWD with Electric motors driving the Rears to make it 4WD) as the gearbox becomes too cumbersome with higher power outputs.
Until LR go down the Hybrid or Electric assist route then I don't think S/S is viable in an auto.Craig
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17th Aug 2009 3:17 pm
Shrinky
Member Since: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Cotswolds
Posts: 2515
So on a hot day when you are stuck in traffic and the engine stops I presume the aircon also stops. I wonder how much extra fuel is then used to cool it back down after you drive off.Global Warming.... I'm luvvin it
17th Aug 2009 3:37 pm
GaryEss
Member Since: 27 Apr 2009
Location: midlands
Posts: 42
I think for any company to survive long term it will need to comply with whatever legislation the governments of the countries in which it wants to sell decide to introduce. Also it will no longer to be possible for a manufacturer to produce only large engined uneconomical cars as their only product line or their markets will be severely limited. Then as the market share dwindles, less is available to spend on R&D and the viscious circle begins.
DPF is only fitted to reduce particulate matter from entering the atmosphere.... with S/S when the engine is stopped it produces no CO, CO2, particulates or uses any fuel at all. So if you are in a 20 minute traffic jam that's 20minutes of idle speed particulates, co, co2 and fuel use that never happens. If every car had stop start, then multiply that 20 minutes by the thousands of vehicles caught in traffic each day and suddenly it all starts to make some sense. Having driven one, I can vouch for the fact that it is a bit wierd and sometimes does not seem worthwhile, but I suspect i would hardly notice on my daily commute as I am stationary nearly all of the time. Landrover won't sell them where I am at the moment though- petrol is only 90 pence a gallon here.
When it comes to designing and selling a vehicle all apart from the very smallest makers, all manufacturers have to develop a compromise- I am sure they would not fit EGR unless they REALLY had to (forced by law)- the only benefit is in the reduction of NOX and I'm sure they don't enjoy carryng out replacements under warranty.
But then again, if I lived in a country where acid rain was a problem then I would be glad that somewhere on the other side of the world an EGR valve was being repaired.
Personally I actually think we need to think long term about how we use what's left of our finite resources
Whole life emmissions, starting with raw materials and ending up with a car being scrapped really show who is good for the planet and LR scores well here due to the long average lifespan of the vehicles.
17th Aug 2009 4:33 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
DPF is a diesel particulate filter, it is there just to reduce particulates. After a while they regenerate to turn the particles into ash which is ejected in the exhaust. They don't reduce CO or CO2, but they do to some extent increase CO2 during regeneration as they put fuel into the exhaust to burn at a high temperature and turn the particles into ash.
BMW are doing a stop start on the new diesel automatic 5 series, but not from the intial release.
17th Aug 2009 5:57 pm
PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
GaryEss - interesting argument
I guess I'm really applying it to the type of driving I see every day......lots of cars stuck in slow moving traffic jams. I hardly ever have to stop for more than a few seconds and can often travel to work on the motorway doing an average of 60km/h with the necessary accelerations to keep up with the traffic.
In this case, a DPF sounds like a great idea to keep the air clean - I often have to put the climate in recirc mode when behind some diesel cars and to be honest I don't think I would really benefit at all from a S/S system as it would rarely get used (plus I'd probably turn it off unless I was really stuck in standing traffic all day like your daily commute entails).
countrywide wrote:
They don't reduce CO or CO2,
I'm pretty sure they do reduce CO emissions Andy......but it was quite a while ago when I was looking into them...
Anyway, there's no money to be made reducing CO unless you stick a '2' on the end....
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Can you imagine the scene where a brilliant, wisened and bearded scientist comes back from his 30 year sabbatical on a desert island and, flicking through the dust-covered notes on his desk picks up a faded carbon copy of a memo, from his 'out' tray (typed up by his apprentice secretary the day before he left).....he sees that it was sent to Congress/Greenpeace/Toyota.....
He starts reading through it and suddenly stops, shouting out loud...."Oh f k !!! ... What the f k did she type a '2' on the end of the title for??.........I know......I'll just keep quiet - I'm sure nobody bothered to read it anyway"2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE AutoBuckingham Blue 2007 Golf GT DSG
17th Aug 2009 6:41 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Big problem with DPF (we have one on the Qashqai) is that you have to be going more then 50mph for a period of time for it to regenerate when it's full. If you only town drive it gets blocked up and then you either have to drive up and down the motorway until it clears or you have to pay for a forced regeneration, which also includes an oil change. I think it costs well over £100 to get this done.
Some of them also have a fluid which has to be topped up and it costs a fair amount as well.
17th Aug 2009 7:03 pm
NeilD
Member Since: 01 Dec 2008
Location: Sunny Surrey
Posts: 4845
Found myself in a BMW main dealer today. It's would seam their start stop system is only on manual cars only.
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k !!! ... What the f 
