countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
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The core product can be released with the extra's added later, which is how I see this being promoted. Many features being discussed now have come about as a result of requests from this forum, but do not appear on the core product offering.
Bit like the D3, the major problems were sorted out from model year 06 onwards, people still bought the earlier one's. Many early features don't actually work as intended, ie the bluetooth module. Some which were promised had to be removed, i.e the fuel burning heater timer in the "upgrade" software,
Loads of products are like that. Same as a remap as I mentioned before, the beta test was the first person to get to 100K of road and not lab driving without the engine being affected. In the meantime many people bought them before this milestone was reached. Fortunately they have been shown to be very reliable and effective.
Last edited by countrywide on 4th Apr 2009 10:55 pm. Edited 2 times in total
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4th Apr 2009 10:39 pm |
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Gaza
Member Since: 08 Jan 2009
Location: At the foot of the Lammermuirs
Posts: 448
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countrywide wrote:One question, how is any of this different to engine remaps.
I was thinking exactly the same.
The only minor difference is that the engines on all versions are pretty much the same but making features available on a (for example) XS that you pay extra for on an HSE may be viewed as unfair. I'm not sure I concur with thinking.
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4th Apr 2009 10:45 pm |
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countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
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Pelyma wrote:CW right back at the beginning of time similar discussions were had about remaps and all these issues came to light.
That's what I am saying, lot's of comments have been made about exactly the same topic, yet many people have now got a remap.
If the system starts to blow up loads of the cars it will fail, but until or if this happens then surely it's worth having a constructive dialogue rather than just righting it off with arguments already seen before on technology which is now regarded as (and rightly so) acceptable.
To me the key thing is stil the competence of the person operating the box. It's like being an explosive expert, it's not pressing the button or having the right equipment, it's putting the explosives in the right place and having the right amount
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4th Apr 2009 10:46 pm |
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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
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Gaza wrote:The only minor difference is that the engines on all versions are pretty much the same but making features available on a (for example) XS that you pay extra for on an HSE may be viewed as unfair. I'm not sure I concur with thinking.
If LR built different looms, ECU's and wrote different software for each trim level, region and regions trim level, you can bet it would cost a damn sight more than it does now. Its called economy of scale... build the same thing and enable only some of it. Sometimes for regional legal reasons.
Having so many electronically enabled features is a great way to keep costs down on the assembly line. BUT increase margins at the point of sale.
Its not 'unfair' but sensible for any manufacturer to keep costs down and use technology to increase margins on the higher levels of trim.
Same goes for engine power levels on some cars... same engine (apart from a few components) and a different engine map. Saves money and increases margin on sportier models...
'Robbing' a manufacturer of valuable margin is akin to 'theft'. You are denying that company the extra profit by buying a lower spec and then up-speccing it yourself.
Remaps on the TDV6 are not robbing the manufacturer of margin. Every diesel D3 has the same engine and the same map.
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4th Apr 2009 11:08 pm |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
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simon wrote:
'Robbing' a manufacturer of valuable margin is akin to 'theft'. You are denying that company the extra profit by buying a lower spec and then up-speccing it yourself.
Remaps on the TDV6 are not robbing the manufacturer of margin. Every diesel D3 has the same engine and the same map.
The 'devalueing' argument is getting a bit tired to be honest.
I would love to have a TDV8 RRS.....I have seriously thought about buying one and my wife likes them (which as we know is half the battle).
I now have my TDV6 remapped and I have talked myself out of buying a TDV8 because I see it as redundant now. I get to keep my beloved D3 and it now has enough power to drive 'the way it should'.
So, in other words, having a remap means that I have stolen potential profits from LR as I no longer feel to need to consider buying a RRS TDV8. In fact I'm sure that quite a few members of this forum would have moved away from the D3 to a different vehicle if it were not possible to significantly improve upon the ±190bhp of the standard TDV6.
Or maybe I just improved my own car (the one that I bought and paid LR for) by modifying it. Countrywide's argument is very valid to me....A remap is just another way of upping the spec of your actual vehicle. The same as the front PDC that I added etc etc. In fact, I would guess that half of the messages on this forum (and any other car-related forum) are about improvements, modifications and tweaks - often done by circumventing manufacturer-imposed limits (such as engine maps or locked-out sat nav options).
As for the whole 'offer hundreds of features and let the users test them' - let's keep it in perspective...BBS seem to have just opened up access to all CCF editable functions and there's a lot of them....we've all seen BBS Spy's test units. It's painfully obvious that it would be impossible for them to test all of them and I feel he's been quite clear about that during the last few weeks.
I think it would also seem be clear that the main market for the Faultmate kit is out-of-warranty vehicles whose owners do not want to be tied to a dealer network for their not-so-new Discovery 3 in a couple of years time.
I believe Autologic now offer the Sat Nav on the move update too....which is great news....but isn't that update a chargeable item at LR dealers and therefore 'stealing' LR profits too?
Please understand that I don't want to provoke anymore arguing, but if Autologic could offer the same Standard->Premium sat nav update would the same arguments be applied to their kit by the same people that are currently questioning BBS?
I also agree that the person 'pressing the buttons' is very very important . But when it comes to a hobbyist enabling a few features on their own D3 I think they're entitled to risk it. It is one thing to start playing with engine parameters and remapping (way out of most hobbyist's league), but choosing Yes or No to enable a Sat Nav option is probably a much safer bet and better risk. 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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5th Apr 2009 12:03 am |
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catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
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PaulP wrote: I get to keep my beloved D3 . obviously the RRS didnt suit you so I doubt you would have bought it or been happy in it anyway.
PaulP wrote:A remap is just another way of upping the spec of your actual vehicle. funny, I have never seen an option to buy a D3 sport . best go and take them offroad tyres off my D3 then
if people wish to 'tinker' with their vehicle then great but what if someone buys one of these false specs and then has an issue only to find the dealer cannot put it back the way it were. you must have your own kit or get it put back . is the tinkerer going to sell his kit with the D3 or reapply the changes when asked to. those who mod, will they disclose the changes to the next owner. pretty dishonest if you dont. this would apply to remaps also
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5th Apr 2009 12:34 am |
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PaulP
Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317
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catweasel wrote:obviously the RRS didnt suit you so I doubt you would have bought it or been happy in it anyway.
I could have been convinced (if the RRS had 7 seats), but you're right - I would feel much more at home in the D3 to be honest My point was that remapping my D3 made such a difference that it meant that it wasn't so necessary for me to start looking at alternatives.
catweasel wrote:funny, I have never seen an option to buy a D3 sport . best go and take them offroad tyres off my D3 then
I think it's clear what I meant when I say 'upping the spec' that I'm talking about improving upon the current specification/performance with respect to engine output and not changing from a XS to a HSE (but you knew this didn't you )
catweasel wrote:if people wish to 'tinker' with their vehicle then great but what if someone buys one of these false specs and then has an issue only to find the dealer cannot put it back the way it were. you must have your own kit or get it put back
Correct - as you say later on, this is the same for remaps.
catweasel wrote: . is the tinkerer going to sell his kit with the D3 or reapply the changes when asked to. those who mod, will they disclose the changes to the next owner. pretty dishonest if you dont. this would apply to remaps also ![Wink Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) Now we're getting into morality and honesty and this, in my opinion, is beyond the remit of the forum. The honesty of D3 owners has nothing to do with the sponsor that is being critiscised for offering products that offer these 'possibilities'
I love you guys in Aus - always up and about whilst I'm having my late night whisky and trawl around the forums
CW 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG
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5th Apr 2009 12:53 am |
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wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14372
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Personally (wether considered right or wrong) i would put the original ccf file back on . As would I endevor to put the car back as it was , after removing all the bits i have added ( with proberly the exception of the hole in the bumper ) .
I think a lot of people dont realy know what spec there getting anyway . When i was looking to buy mine Landrover website , my dealer and an internet supplier all quoted different spec . In the end is was the internet broker that got the spec spot on . If you cant even trust LR to tell you what you should have in the first place , who would realy know when they purchased a second hand vehicle.
Another point ..if a dealer spotted a 4 x 4 info screen on the screen and it was an SE model ..would he then go and check if that person had actually speced it at time of purchase ..i think not .
I paid for my car ( yes paid for ..not finance ) so as far as im concerened its mine to do with what i please. When service time comes along , i certinatly will not be removing the features i have added .
Oh and just for the record i am still in warranty with my car until Sept.
If when i sold the car someone asked me to leave the extras on it ..i would be more than happy . I have covered about 3000 miles since playing with this stuff and nothing has gone wrong with my car ...another 4000 will be covered as i drive across europe in a few days time .
While the talk of remaps , would it be fair to sell the car on and not tell someone ?..should the car not be put back to standard in that issue aswell ?
I am also sorry for being a novice ..i keep hoping one day i will wake up and know everything about everything ...without having the need to learn anything first G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
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5th Apr 2009 1:37 am |
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AndrewS
Tarquin of the Desert
Member Since: 06 May 2005
Location: Y...... because I can
Posts: 10439
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I have spoken to a few LR sales persons ref a part exchange car that has had some 'extras' enabled. They didnt think it would be an issue. In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
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5th Apr 2009 2:28 am |
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UNG
Member Since: 20 Jun 2008
Location: Lancs
Posts: 762
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wiggs wrote: ..i keep hoping one day i will wake up and know everything about everything ...without having the need to learn anything first ![Laughing Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)
Well said I think it applies to alot of people ! "Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag'em down to your level. It's cheaper".
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5th Apr 2009 2:43 am |
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catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
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wiggs wrote:Personally (wether considered right or wrong) i would put the original ccf file back on . that would be the right thing to do IMO unless as you have said below
wiggs wrote:If when i sold the car someone asked me to leave the extras on it ..i would be more than happy .. if the new owner is fully aware and not decieved then I cant see an issue
wiggs wrote:Another point ..if a dealer spotted a 4 x 4 info screen on the screen and it was an SE model ..would he then go and check if that person had actually speced it at time of purchase ..i think not . thats between you and the dealer and LR its when onsold it becomes an issue.
wiggs wrote:While the talk of remaps , would it be fair to sell the car on and not tell someone ?..should the car not be put back to standard in that issue aswell ?. when a remap is purchased the purchasee is fully aware that the remap will be installed only to the original purchaser so as with the upspeccing if this is declared to the new owner then I cant see an issue.
Im not interested in the changing of the ccf file but its diagnostic capability so enough of this rubbish and do a diagnostics thread
if you havent already
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5th Apr 2009 3:25 am |
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Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
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I don't understand why somebody can be against improving a car. If it is a roofrack, winch, MTR's or 4x4creen or whatever. I got them all as I have a G4 HSE.
If the mayority off the members will become against upgrading the LR Nav screen etc as that will not fair against HSE owners. I will be against remaps as that we be unfair against V8 owners.
As this is a useless statement I think the whole discussion about activating parts that are installed in your D3 being wrong as completely . Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
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5th Apr 2009 12:11 pm |
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wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14372
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Roel G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
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5th Apr 2009 12:27 pm |
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grzesiul
Member Since: 11 May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 6311
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isn't it up to the owner what one wants to do with their own car??????????? it is why we are humans not monkeys as always trying to improve on things!!!!
having a proper diagnostic equipement with abilities to switch options on/off is great, I do not feel as if it was theft, it is stealing to to be charged 20x more on different spec model for options already emebeded ino it
so improve people be happy with your mods, inform you insurer and being on the safe side LOL
rgds
grzegorz
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5th Apr 2009 12:52 pm |
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90BHP
Member Since: 18 Oct 2006
Location: Half way along the road on the right
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LR will have the last word - try retro-fitting front PDC to an 09MY 7 Seat, GS or XS "To finish first, one first has to finish ...."
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5th Apr 2009 1:35 pm |
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