Member Since: 16 Jan 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 123
ZF Auto Box. Is LR using different box's ?
Interesting question has come up after attending the Motor Show today in Melbourne. I thought that the 6 speed ZF box's were all rated for 600 Nm of torque. Not so apparently as Ford are fitting two different versions of the box in the falcons here in Australia.
The first version is rated for 440 nm and the second one for 650 nm which is fitted to the high performance engine versions. The only differences according to the video display next to the sectioned box on the stand is that the higher torque version has stronger clutch packs in it.
Does anyone have access to the LR parts list and are they able to check that the model number of the box used in the TDV6's is identical to the model number used in the RR sports. If they are identical one might assume they are all the higher rated box but if they are different perhaps the D3 only has the lower rated box fitted.
10th Feb 2006 7:23 am
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Will look later, I think the lower rated box may be for the V6 petrol version?
10th Feb 2006 8:43 am
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
Manual box - didn't get the part numbers but the LR description of the box includes the following
"The ZF S6-53 all synchromesh transmission has six
forward gears and a reverse. It is mounted longitudinally
and has a maximum torque capacity of 472Nm."
The description of the auto 'box (ZF 6HP26) does not give any torque rating but I can't see it being any higher than the manual 'box
10th Feb 2006 10:17 am
Vo Rogue
Member Since: 16 Jan 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 123
Thanks 10forcash.
I will try and dig a bit deeper into this and see whether the different boxs are all the same rateings and different controls or different rateings and/or different controls. The 4.2 supercharged are listed as 550 nM compared to the 2.7 440 Nm.
Does it really matter, my guess is probably not a lot however it was interesting to find out that there are more than one model of that box and what the differences are. Obviously the heavier duty the better in terms of likely product life however as I commented somewhere else on the forum, the earlier ZF HP24 boxs were pretty robust and reliable and they were rated for at least 450 Nm and the new box's are supposed to be able to take higher torques than that.
10th Feb 2006 12:08 pm
Vo Rogue
Member Since: 16 Jan 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 123
Some more info on the box
ZF six-speed debuts on BMW's 7 Series
ZF brought its 6HP26 six-speed automatic transmission from concept to production in less than four years.
After appearing as a concept nearly two years ago at the SAE 2000 World Congress, the ZF Group began producing in July the "world's first" production six-speed automatic transmission, the 6HP26. The passenger-vehicle transmission went from development to production in less than four years, and will appear first on the redesigned 2002 BMW 7 Series.
In a July article in AEI ("Transmission options," page 64), ZF's Group Vice President for Product Development Gerhard Wagner said that many "industry experts predict that (its) six-speed automatic transmissions will become the preferred solution for vehicles with longitudinally installed engines because of their compact designs."
The 6HP26 is not only more compact, but in test simulation it was shown to offer a 13% reduction in mass, 5% better acceleration, and a 5-7% fuel-consumption savings while offering "fundamentally better performance" than the standard five-speed automatic transmission it replaces, the 5HP24. Fuel consumption was achieved not only through the addition of the sixth gear, but via a new low viscosity oil developed by ZF as well as Stand-by-Control (SBC). SBC is an electronic control system that essentially controls the input clutch in the transmission so that the engine is disconnected from the driveline when the vehicle is stationary, even when in gear.
The new transmission for high-performance cars with eight- to twelve-cylinder engines has a maximum input torque of 600 N•m (440 lb•ft) at 4200 rpm. The overall gear-ratio range of 6.04 was selected to achieve comparatively low speeds in the "long" sixth gear ratio and at high speeds.
ZF engineers based the six-speed automatic transmission on the Lepelletier geartrain. Using this concept, the 6HP26 was designed with significantly fewer components. For the current five-speed automatic transmissions, three geartrains and six clutch elements were needed; the new transmission requires only one simple and one Ravigneaux geartrain in combination with five clutch elements. The result is a transmission with a mass of only 89 kg (196 lb) with oil. It is also 50 mm (2 in) shorter.
The use of plastic also reduced mass, with the oil pan and base body of the Mechatronik module no longer made of metal. The Mechatronik module is a combination of hydraulics and electronics that fine-tune all shifting processes in the transmission for enhanced shift quality and increased driver comfort. The shifting electronics not only give signals to the driver, but also receive information about the current driving situation; thus, it is able to recognize and react to (with optimal shift timing) the condition of the transmission, drag resistance (e.g., weight and slope), and driver behavior. In this way, it can range from very sporty to very economical driving styles.
According to ZF, it will be adding to both the top and bottom ends of the six-speed transmission range, covering a torque range from about 300 to 750 N•m (220 to 550 lb•ft).
10th Feb 2006 12:40 pm
SN
Member Since: 03 Jan 2006
Location: Romiley
Posts: 13710
So... a bl**din' complicated piece of equipment then? Steve N | 21MY Defender | 08MY Discovery 3 (history) | 06MY Discovery 3 (ancient history)
10th Feb 2006 5:51 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
yer, and that's just a summary the LR training docs devote 54 pages or so to an overview
10th Feb 2006 6:23 pm
al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 10296
But doesn't this mean that some of you "turbochipped" guys with autoboxes are in trouble if the auto's only rated for 472Nm. I thought the ugrade took you over 500Nm.
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10th Feb 2006 6:35 pm
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
bit of a dilemma there... TC et al (no, not you Al ) will tell you the 'boxes will handle the increase in torque but the raw numbers say not guess we'll know when the first one breaks - or not as the case may be
10th Feb 2006 9:45 pm
scorpio
Member Since: 26 Feb 2005
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 237
working out them figures it puts all auto boxes in danger from to much torque if chipped.
10th Feb 2006 11:13 pm
Vo Rogue
Member Since: 16 Jan 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 123
scorpio wrote:
working out them figures it puts all auto boxes in danger from to much torque if chipped.
Perhaps but it is possible depending on what LR have specified. The numbers might mean - speculation though -
TGD500 = particular box type and
430/450/460/470 = Bosch Control unit settings.
Because the vehicles are heavy and are used off road (shock loadings to the drive train under full load) I would expect that LR are using the heavier clutch packs in them anyway and the caseings might also be heavier versions. Of course logic does not always prevail and it was an item of interest for the Technical Forum rather than concern on the chipping aspects especially as there are a number of chipped D3's out there already.
I cant remember if I commented earlier on my ZF HP24 (same as the earlier RR box's) but it was up for its second 30,000 mile service recently. When I got the gearbox sump off I was amazed at the workmanship inside and the lack of debris/worn material for a box that had done 60,000 miles. Clean as a whistle, well nearly anyway and only what I thought was a very small amount of clutch material in the filter. Very very nicely made piece of engineering and the new box is supposed to be even better.
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the LR training docs devote 54 pages or so to an overview 
