Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Tomorrow is another day - well we all hope so!
Friday afternoon and I prepare to do part 2 of my gearbox seals and sump odyssey.
Remember what I said about the endless dripping trans fluid well this is what dripped out over about 20 hours
Nightmare!
Anyway, no turning back now. I released the 10 T40 torx bolts that hold the mechatronic unit to the gearbox. I found the tightening sequence for the bolts and reversed it. All cam undone easily, each bolt removed in turn until there was just one last bolt. Make sure you support the unit as you release the last bolt. Out it comes, nice and easy.
There it is, one mechatronic unit! and.... No I didn't drop it and nor is it sat in a pile of woodshavings and saw dust - I placed it in the big drip tray before moving it safely out of the way.
Now we can see the bottom of the mechanical part of the gearbox.
Note the line of black tube seals and the bridge seal - I want to change these. The tube seals pass pressurised oil to the clutches so you wan t a good seal. These have compressed which is normal but if you want your box at its best then do these seals while you're messing about with the thing. It is not difficult to change these and it is a false economy not to; after all it is just a case of undoing some bolts to drop the mechatronic unit.
Tube seals; note they are flush to the surface.
Bridge seal
Some clutch plates!
Here are the seals removed
Now compare old and new side by side
The tube seals need to be removed carefully. I used a small pick but a small screwdriver would do to lever the end out far enough to be able to grab it with a pair of pliers. You need to make sure you absolutely don't scratch the surfaces. Don't pierce the sidewalls of the seals when levering them out.
New seals in place - note how they protrude slightly which shows how much the original seals have been compressed.
New bridge seal in. This one is really easy to replace, just pull it down then push the new one in place.
With the seals done I put the mechatronic unit back in, not before being dripped on some more
The mechatronic unit securing bolts are done up to only 8Nm; you will need a small torque wrench for this.
I am now at the point where I had to revisit the nemesis of the filter tube and how to get it under the front of the box to be able to fit the sump. I very seriously considered leaving the car on the ramp and ordering a metal sump kit. It was time to get serious.
I looked to see if I had any way of getting a bit more lift on the engine but that was not happening. I tried moving the gearbox up and down a bit - bear in mind I had, at this point, only removed the one gearbox mounting bolt and not the cross member.
After messing about, harsh language and pulling, pushing and levering I was close to admitting defeat. I did find the because of moving the gearbox up and down the engine mount arm didn't want to line up with the mounting stud - a piece of bent fence wire did the trick here so that little drama was nipped in the bud.
I had go backward and there was no other option I could see other than to remove the gearbox cross member, this would give a bit more angle and hopefully the sump would go in.
So, gearbox cross member - remove.........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
OK.
It's only 4 bolts.
Yes...... but.......
Remove the heat shield in front of the fuel filter, undo the electrical connector for the water sensor then remove the other half of the connector plug from the cross member ( it slides out the retainer!). Then remove the bracket too. That's all just nuts and bolts, not too bad.
Next you will need to pop off the exhaust rubber on the passenger side. What a pain, that was a bit tight but some GT85 and a screwdriver to lever the rubber and it popped off after about 10 minutes of swearing and cursing - when the rubber is stuck by rust it really doesn't want to play the game.
The you also need to undo the two front bolts holding the fuel tank shield. These will be rusty and were a bit of a battle.
After removing all these bits I then attempted the 4 retaining bolts that hold the cross member. Wow those things were stubborn. The issue is the bolts rust in to the tubes they pass through. A breaker bar and a good heave cracked them off.
I don't know how long it took me to drop the cross member but.....
I got it out
Here is the bracket and wiring you need to remove
Don't forget the new mechatronic sleeve seal; it's easy to see why it was leaking when you compare new and old side by side
The sleeve seal is reasonably easy to put in but be aware the new seal will be a snug fit and will need to be firmly pushed/wiggled in to position. You can't push the white tab up to lock it until it is pushed fully home. A bit of wiggling should see it done. Don't forget to get this seal in place BEFORE you pop the sump on. Lucky for me I didn't make this mistake but I can see how you could, hence my words of warning.
Now I'm ready to have a go at getting the sump in place. I jacked up the front right engine mount, I was close but not close enough. I lifted the engine a touch more, the steering shaft is now in the way. I can't get the sump in, sssssooooo frustrating to be this close. I lifted the back of the gearbox, there are some creaking type noises and the odd crack as the whole drivetrain moves and twists. The box is now hard up against the bottom of the body, the engine mount can't move any more either. I'm not convinced. I just couldn't see how or why I couldn't get to where I needed to be. Having had some time to reflect on this of a job I can only conclude the gearbox mount has to be well out of the way so the gearbox can rotate. As it turns when the engine mount is raised it means you can get a few extra mm's of clearance but it seems it is touch and go if the sump tube will actually clear the edge of the gearbox. Either way, I wouldn't want to do it again.
I try the sump again. I twist and turn it, it is so frustratingly close. It is a question of fractions of a milimetre. Being so close and frankly a bit off with it I went with the brute force and ignorance approach. I shoved hard and the tube and the sump gave just a bit and scraped under the side of the gearbox and that was it in place
I just wiggled the tube in to place and pushed the sump up in to place and then with the engine and gearbox still raised up put the sump bolts in place and quickly wound them all in by hand. Then I reached for the torque wrench and did up the bolts in sequence, 10Nm only please.
For small torque values get yourself a small torque wrench, this one is 1/4" drive and is really good. I bought it from Ebay as a refurbished one. It is in mint condition and was perfect for this job.
That was it... it was in, job almost done. I lowered the engine and gearbox, put the engine mount nut back on and did it up FT using the double spanner method again. With the gearbox still supported by the jack and blocking under the tail of the transfer box I cleaned up the cross member bolts and gave them a healthy coat of copper grease.
Cross member back in place, bolts tightened. I cleaned the tank shield bolts and coated them in copper grease before putting them back in. Next gearbox mounting bolt, this needs to be quite tight 130ft/lbs and there is not a lot of room to swing the torque wrench. I cheated and used 4ft of scaffold tube over the torque wrench. Done!
Pop the exhaust hanger back in to the rubber and I'm on the home straight.
Looking good
Now for the initial gearbox fill. First up, make sure the drain plug is tightened, just 10Nm and remember this thing is plastic.
Then I pour some Mannol AG55 in a large jug, 2 litres of golden gearbox glory!
Pour in to a large oil syringe
........ and inject in to the gearbox until the fluid comes out of the filler hole. It takes about 3.5 litres.
I leave it here overnight. Afterall, it is Friday evening and I now need a beer, a soak in the tub and some food in that very order! I suppose I spent about 3 hours maybe a little more but I was a happy bunny. If I had removed the cross member to start with I suppose I would have saved myself some time but hind sight is a wonderful thing.
So now we're almost up to date. This morning I ventured in to the barn. Checked under the gearbox and no evidence of any leakage. This looks good. I lowered the lift and reconnected the batteries.
I put the key in and the self check does its' thing, no problems so far. I turn the key, the engine fires and settles in to an even idle, no bongs, no warning lights - fantastic!
I move the gear selector through the gears holding in each as I go up and down the selector gate, I feel the box engage and listen for anything funny but all is well.
Next I pulled my Gap IID from the glovebox and plug it in. I clear a couple of minor faults related to the battery being disconnected then switch to live data to read the gearbox temperature ready to fill the box.
Engine running I lift the car again, remove the gearbox filler plug and then prepare the oil syringe. I initially put in 2 litres of transmission fluid then wait...... the gearbox temperature rises slowly. At 30 degrees I inject another litre of fluid, it isn't issuing from the fill plug yet. I wait some more.
A couple more degrees and I put in another litre, still no overflow. I wait a bit more.
Temperature is looking good. I fire another syringe full of oil in to the box
Still no oil comes out! I'm thinking that's nearly 8 litres of transmission fluid, from empty it only takes 9 or thereabout. Anyway.....
Another shot of fluid......
Temperature is on the money and success, oil starts to come out of the filler hole.
I quickly pop the plug in
I lower the lift and switch off. Raise it back up, put on the under trays and have a tidy up then it's time for a quick spin round the block. All is well, box is smooth, no funny noises. Best of all, there are no spare bits left which is always a bonus.
Then I remember it would be a good idea to maybe clear the adaptions so I plug in the Gap IID again, clear the adaptions and sigh with satisfaction. By chance I had to pop out to pick up some bits from Screwfix, the Disco was smooth with barely perceptible gear changes. I'm calling it job done, mission success.
All of that said, I can see why replacing the gearbox filter is not a job set out in the Haynes manual. I can also say if I have to do another mechatronic sleeve seal I would only go with a metal sump and separate filter as it has be substantially easier than the plastic fantastic. If I'm lucky, I won't need to do it again but you never know......
As with the way of things, I noticed the front diff input seal is leaking.... so another job!
30th Jul 2022 3:50 pm
CongoBoy
Member Since: 05 Mar 2019
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 529
Thank you Bro!
Flatlander wrote:
@classic kev
Thanks for your reply, of course one of the problems is that there is very little descriptive information when buying online, actual shops selling the stuff are very few and far between too so I guess I'll just buy a few (hopefully) cheap ones and see which suits best - thanks again!
2008 D3 HSE Stornoway Grey (UK)
2008 D3 HSE Izmir Blue- South African Spec. (Zimbabwe)
2005 FFRR SC V8- Java Black
1995 D1 300 Tdi Blue - (Sourced from the UK, shipped to Namibia, driven by me to RD Congo, then Zambia, now retired in Zimbabwe)
30th Jul 2022 9:09 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
I love this site, there is so much information and the care members take to make it clear is great. I thought I would research the front diff seal.
It appears replacing the pinion seal it is not really a DIY fix which is frustrating but on the other hand, it could be the issue is the diff vent which would be a very different thing.
I went outside, popped the bonnet and sure enough the breather is original so it occurs to me for the princely sum of £13.00 + VAT I should see if fitting the modified breather sorts it out.
So I have ordered the modified front diff vent, Part number LR019450 which I'll fit and see what happens.
Fingers crossed!
Cheers.
31st Jul 2022 7:31 am
Captain Crosscheck
Member Since: 03 Sep 2021
Location: Oslo
Posts: 340
Kev: did you see the LR Time video?
IIRC he makes some tools, so you would need a lathe, but I think this is a good guide.
31st Jul 2022 1:53 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Thanks Captain!
That was an interesting video from LR Time and certainly mirrored my own thoughts that the diff pinion seal should be capable of being changed. I've certainly done a few on the old RRC; the principle is the same but the way the pinion bearing pre-load is set on the D3 makes it awkward but essentially, as long as the nut goes back in the same place there shouldn't be a problem.
My other thoughts about this are to maybe try to measure the force required to turn the input shaft and then match it; if you've ever done seals on a 4 bolt Adwest steering box (RRC/Disco 1/Defender) using a spring balance to measure the resistance of the box to set the pre-load you'll know what I mean.
The tricky bit is getting a reliable measurement of the twist required once initial inertia has been overcome which is to say simply attempting to measure peak torque may not be reliable as the initial force to get it moving will be higher than the actual force required to keep it turning.
Anyway, it is certainly a job I would consider taking on but if replacing the vent sorts it out then all the better but if not I would certainly consider taking it on.
Cheers!
1st Aug 2022 7:14 am
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Another day another fix!
This was a really simple one. I ordered the revised front diff breather from Advanced Factors which arrived with the usual speed.
If must have taken all of 5 minutes to cut the old breather off and pop the new one on. So all I have to do now is next time I put it on the ramp I need to drop the undertray and clean off around the pinion seal then check it a bit later to see if it is still leaking. Hopefully this will be a breather issue rather than a need to replace the oil seal although to be fair I don't think replacing the seal should be too difficult.
2nd Aug 2022 12:55 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Not much doing just now. I put the Disco on the ramp at the weekend to check my gearbox sump change was a total success - it was! No leaks so all good.
Also had a look at the front diff pinion seal, it didn't look wet so I think the new breather has done the trick and I have dodged another bullet there but I gave it all a good dowsing with brake cleaner and will check again soon.
Cheers.
15th Aug 2022 2:29 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
OK, it has started! Yesterday I parked the Disco on the ramp and got stuck in.
My mission was HPFP belt and glow plugs. OMG what a battle. Anyway, I didn't quite get finished as poor light stopped play but 5 glow plugs successfully replaced, old HPFP belt removed.
Tonight I plan to put the new belt and tensioner on then get ready for the oil pump and timing belt.
Don't worry I will do a big write up with pictures soon.
Cheers!
22nd Aug 2022 8:06 am
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Well I did get the belt and tensioner in place so that was good. I can see why this is an unpopular bit of maintenance, you need double jointed wrists and elbows. Anyway, now I've done one I can see how it is and expect I could do it a bit quicker but hope I won't have to!
Before putting lots of stuff back together I wanted to do the glow plugs. Easy enough in theory, remove oil filter, remove glow plug harnesses and then remove oil separator. The first bits were great, no drama but that oil separator what moron came up with that idea. It was a battle to get it out but after a lot of pushing and pulling and twisting it came out with a lot of brute force.
I got on to the glow plugs, all came undone with next to no effort which was a bonus. I replaced 5 plugs, the one by the high pressure fuel pump is obstructed by the pump. My view is 5 out of 6 working plugs is way better than the zero working plugs I had.
While the harnesses were out I have replaced the brittle and crumbling convoluted tubing. I will do a couple of other bits of wiring under the bonnet as well.
Now I had to try and get that oil separator back in. I have tried every which way but it simply won't go in. I trimmed the legs down and also the locating peg on the back and it still won't go in. I appealed for help in the maintenance section but it appears nobody knows anything about it so I am still stuck.
I have done some more searching and it occurs to me that a lot of the information out there relates to pre 2007 D3's. From what I can see, the pipework on the fuel pump is different and it looks like you need to remove a couple of fuel pipes to achieve the clearance needed to get that pig of a bit of plastic back in it's hole. Looking at it, it would not have been difficult to have made it so that the legs could be detached or perhaps the cyclone on the back a separate piece with a simple push on tube to connect to the front bit, maybe it is sour grapes and frustration but what an appalling design!
Anyway my plan will be to have another stab at it later. I will remove the fuel pipe that is in the way; no idea what else I will need to undo to achieve this but it looks like I will be finding out. Once I get this done I can push on with the oil pump.
23rd Aug 2022 10:18 am
disco chris
Member Since: 25 Apr 2022
Location: London
Posts: 281
Really interesting to read about your progress kev, great work!
Interested in doing the glow plugs myself, have heard they can be very fragile and break - but yours came out without much fuss?
23rd Aug 2022 12:25 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Hi Chris,
Indeed glow plugs are a risk. When I took mine for MOT at a local LR specialist I said I wanted to do them, the guy laughed at me and said good luck!
As I'm sure you know from reading up the glow plugs are known to seize and if you break them you will be in a world of pain.
If you skim back a bit in this thread you'll see I was optimistic because I previously tested if I could get any glow plugs out. I had a go at removing the front ones that don't require much to be taken off, all of them came out so I was pretty sure all of them would just unwind from their threads and that is exactly what I found so happy days. The not so good bit is the blasted oil separator!
23rd Aug 2022 2:06 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
A brief update.....
The oil separator is in! It was embarrassingly easy and took less than 30 secs.
I believe that with 2007 model year onward you have to remove the fuel pipe that feeds the right side (UK drivers side) fuel rail. With the pipe moved the oil separator almost just drops in, a quick twist and plop in it goes, job done move on!
So I have now put the top bits mostly back together and have started on the oil pump. Timing cover is off and I'm getting ready to remove alternator and starter motor.
I'll let you know how it goes.
23rd Aug 2022 4:34 pm
Captain Crosscheck
Member Since: 03 Sep 2021
Location: Oslo
Posts: 340
IMHO the starter motor is way worse than the rear belt. That was merely a scraped forearm or two! The starter however... And watch so the little rubber plug doesn't disappear into the housing! Mine is still in there somewhere
23rd Aug 2022 5:28 pm
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
Hi Captain, thanks for the heads up. I always wonder when I read the manual for almost any operation; they make it sound so easy. Just undo this and that and release etc...
I do at least have a ramp which I think will help. Anyway, watch this space, I'll report on progress.
24th Aug 2022 7:45 am
classic kev
Member Since: 12 Feb 2021
Location: Mold
Posts: 204
More progress this evening.
It was a bit of a later start so my goal was only to remove the alternator and alternator bracket, but as it happens I have also removed the starter motor.
The alternator is easy but the starter motor...... well I can see why and how that can be a challenge but believe it or not, I must have beginners luck because I thought it was quite easy and didn't take very long at all.
That said, I do have the advantage of a lift so I have plenty of elbow room. The other thing that was useful was a post I stumbled upon by accident and there was a comment about rotating the starter - from my point of view that was the key bit of info. So, I twisted the starter and it was obvious how it comes out. There is enough cable on the small wire for it to drop down so you can get at it and there it was - out.
I was rather wondering what the fuss was about although I am a great believer in a bit of luck every now and then, perhaps this is a reward for not giving up easily with the blasted oil separator!
Captain Crosscheck gave me a b it of a heads up about the blanking plug/grommet, I now know exactly what he means, however, I didn't drop it or loose it in the bell housing. You can actually get your fingers behind it so with care it pops out.
The only other thing that happened was when I loosened the starter motor a foreign object dropped out of nowhere..... WTFWT I thought; I picked it up of the floor, it was a torx driver bit. It has clearly been living at the back there for a long time looking at the state of it so somebody has at least tried to give this motor some love at some point.
That's all for today. I think tomorrow I will get the engine set and put the timing pins in and maybe pop the cam belt off. Looking forward to pulling the oil pump!
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of a job I can only conclude the gearbox mount has to be well out of the way so the gearbox can rotate. As it turns when the engine mount is raised it means you can get a few extra mm's of clearance but it seems it is touch and go if the sump tube will actually clear the edge of the gearbox. Either way, I wouldn't want to do it again.
