Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
Strange fbh scenario
Don’t know if anybody has had this?
I’ve just put a fbh remote on the disco. Last week I got in it and turned the key as normal. It started but ticked over extremely lumpy and had no power when pressing go pedal. I switched off and on again and it was fine. First time it’s done this. I then realised 10 mins before I walked out to start it i’d Blipped the fbh remote just out of it being a new thing. It wasn’t cold out I just thought I’d give it a try. Since then the wife’s been using the car as normal obviously without fbh remote and it’s been fine. Yesterday morning I thought I’d give the fbh remote a blip again 10 mins before starting. Again had the lumpy tick over and no power. This time it took a few cycles of switching off and back on until it fired up as normal.
This morning was the coldest it’s been all year here. I thought I’ll give blipping fbh remote a miss. Got in turned the key, waited a couple of seconds and it fired up as normal.
Might be a complete fluke but it seems when fbh is fired up before starting it causes this issue. I’ve searched the starting and ticking over lumpy issue and most threads come down to contaminated fuel ie water in the diesel. Could the fbh running before start up cause this in anyway?
This has only happened twice and both times fbh has been fired up previously. I will give it a couple more goes this week to check if pattern continues but it seems to me the fbh may be the problem.
Firstly it's not the FBH , it's you 10 mins is not enough time, you need 20-30 mins, so what's happening is your partly raising the water temp, enough to fool the car into thinking its warm and as such preventing part of the glow plug pre heat cycle, but as the car starts it instantly cools and runs lumpy.
If you watch the temp gauge before you turn it over it will have risen above cold, then on start up instantly drop back
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5th Nov 2017 11:13 am
Felstmiester
Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
Beanie your bang on. Just found this after a lot of searching.
I'm sure I recall some threads, possibly on here, a long while ago saying some people were experiencing rough startup with the FBH causing the ECU to think the cylinders were warmer than was the case. The theory being that the FBH will cause the coolant to be warmer than the cylinders (as heat is coming from former to latter) versus the normal condition of coolant being cooler than the cylinders.
Is it possible the FBH could make cold starting worse as ECU will trigger insufficient retardation of the injectors.
When it gets to zero or below I'm finding it helps to cycle the ignition a couple of times, which I'm assuming will cause whichever glow plugs are working to heat (partially) a second/third time.
I'm also assuming that this won't help the day that the remaining glow plugs suffer their demise.
Hey, ho. The old technique of heat, penetrating oil, 1/4 turn out, 1/8 turn back will hopefully get some out without breaking.
5th Nov 2017 11:18 am
Felstmiester
Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
Ok. What are the bas early fbh controllers set to time wise? I’m sure I read 30 mins. I powered fbh up this morning ( very icy out ) and let it run it’s course and still got the lumpy start up??
6th Nov 2017 3:38 pm
Narpy
Member Since: 18 Jul 2011
Location: Stockport
Posts: 7830
When you have the lumpy start up you need to observe where the engine temperature gauge is at because if your FBH has properly warmed the engine, you shouldn't have a lumpy start.
Once correctly warmed, the engine management won't allow the glow plugs to fully heat as it believes the engine is warm enough for a start up. I suspect you're doing something wrong and the engine is actually still cold, OR you have another underlying problem as yet un-diagnosed.
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6th Nov 2017 4:09 pm
Felstmiester
Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
Ok I’ll check it out in the morning. I must say I didn’t time how long the fbh was running this morning but I’m assuming it was 30 mins as shortly after blipping remote i checked it was running and when I went out to start it I’d say it was over 30 mins and it had gone off. I didn’t look at temp gauge but on the first start even though it was running lumpy the heat blowing at windscreen started thawing the ice immediately so I’m almost certain it must of been up to temperature.
I can understand as said above if fbh was only running for 10 mins but most stuff I’ve read leaving it to do the 30 min duration does the trick.
When I say it runs lumpy I don’t mean just running a bit lumpy like some do on cold start for a few seconds then are ok. I’m talking it’s sound like it’s running on 3 cylinders and won’t rev at all.
6th Nov 2017 5:33 pm
Felstmiester
Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
Bit of an update on this.
Very cold this morning 2c. Blipped remote at 8:30 and checked fbh fired up. Went back out at 8:45 still running. Returned at 9:00 and it was just shutting off. Jumped in and switch on ignition and it had warmed up this much.
Turned the key and same problem. Lumpy tick over and won’t rev. It was just as cold here fri morning and it started fine without using fbh.
Any ideas what the problem is? One thing I did notice was on occasions when I popped out to check this morning the fbh didn’t sound like it was running at full chat all the time. Like at 8:15 I looked and it was belting smoke out but at 8:45 I walked out and it was buzzing but then seconds after it fired up to full chat again.
19th Nov 2017 9:18 am
mick_n3
Member Since: 19 May 2017
Location: Kettering
Posts: 438
Maybe an engine temp sensor fault, had same problem last week from cold didn't notice it started and idled spot on and drove fine.
But preheat with FBH starts ok but started surging just above idle and running rough temp gauge showing about the same as your pic after 30mins preheat.
Changed both water temp and oil temp sensors yesterday no problem this morning, might be worth viewing the live data from the sensors
M6NIO
19th Nov 2017 9:28 am
Felstmiester
Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
You would think that if water temp sensor or oil temp sensor was faulty it would show on normal start though no??
19th Nov 2017 9:53 am
mick_n3
Member Since: 19 May 2017
Location: Kettering
Posts: 438
Mine didn't it started first kick and idled nice and drove ok, as it warmed up about where you pic shows, it became lumpy and surging just above idle, unless you stopped for any length of time I didn't notice it, as once up to normal temp it was fine again.
Showed no fault codes but as it warmed up the live values from the oil temp sensor dropped, it got to about 25 to 30 then dropped to minus 15ish and it started surging, leave it running and the temp reading would rise again and engine ran ok.
Changed both the sensors yesterday and tried it from cold ok, and again this morning with a 30 min FBH burn.
M6NIO
19th Nov 2017 10:10 am
Felstmiester
Member Since: 12 Dec 2016
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 211
I haven’t got a code reader so guess it will be a case of swapping out both the water temp sensor and oil.
I’ve never noticed it hunting or idling funny at all in the past though.
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10 mins is not enough time, you need 20-30 mins, so what's happening is your partly raising the water temp, enough to fool the car into thinking its warm and as such preventing part of the glow plug pre heat cycle, but as the car starts it instantly cools and runs lumpy.
