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bashir
Member Since: 04 Jan 2005
Location: Huon Valley, Tasmania
Posts: 154
  
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Anyone know off the top of their head (or if they have their Disco3 handbook close by) what Land Rover says about the use of Biofuels (ie biodiesel) ?
I remember reading about it in the handbook, but since the Disco is still in service, I can't get to the books.
thanks
 2009 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 HSE
1985 LR 110 County 3.5 V8
(what options?!)
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 11th Oct 2005 8:12 am |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
  
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bashir wrote:Anyone know off the top of their head (or if they have their Disco3 handbook close by) what Land Rover says about the use of Biofuels (ie biodiesel) ?
I remember reading about it in the handbook, but since the Disco is still in service, I can't get to the books.
thanks
basically, it says *dont* - warranty void, blah, blah, blah.....
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| 11th Oct 2005 8:55 am |
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HA-YAL
Member Since: 26 Sep 2005
Location: Normandy
Posts: 8
 
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Actually - LR will warrant use of biofuels up to the maximum allowed according to fuel specifications: gasoline: 5% in Europe, 10% in the US and Canada. We could use up to 15% biofuels in current engines without loss of power, etc. I work for a company that manufactures cellulose ethanol and we worked with Scotland Yard and with Jaguar/Land Rover to supply a 5% ethanol blend for the 50+ Jags and Range Rovers/Disco3 that were used to ferry the 30 heads of states who attended the G8 summit at Gleneagles in Scotland in July (great fun it was! This is actually what made me decide to buy a Dosco3, whic I ordered last Monday!).
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| 11th Oct 2005 4:28 pm |
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shawn
Member Since: 23 Aug 2005
Location: At the top of the hill
Posts: 574
 
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sorry but what are biofuels (biodiesel) 
shawn bali blue disco 4 with rear dvd's, privacy glass, pre heat system, heated steering wheel, full size spare, piano black trim, ipod cable, 20 inch wheels and i love it loads more than my TDV8 RRS, KTM 250 EXC 2 Stroke for the real off road stuff
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| 11th Oct 2005 7:20 pm |
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Gareth
Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26699
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shawn wrote:sorry but what are biofuels (biodiesel)
shawn
Basically they are renewable energy sources made from vegetable oils, Rape seed oil etc. Its renewable because you can 'grow' it. I think problem with bio is the amount of land that would be required to grow enough to satisfy the world.
Chip fat is a bio fuel, as it is Vegie oil.
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| 11th Oct 2005 7:34 pm |
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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
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Gareth wrote:shawn wrote:sorry but what are biofuels (biodiesel)
shawn
Basically they are renewable energy sources made from vegetable oils, Rape seed oil etc. Its renewable because you can 'grow' it. I think problem with bio is the amount of land that would be required to grow enough to satisfy the world.
Chip fat is a bio fuel, as it is Vegie oil.
But the tree huggers would still hate us... unless they found some other crusade or group to persecute.
-s
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| 11th Oct 2005 8:51 pm |
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Gareth
Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26699
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simon wrote:Gareth wrote:shawn wrote:sorry but what are biofuels (biodiesel)
shawn
Basically they are renewable energy sources made from vegetable oils, Rape seed oil etc. Its renewable because you can 'grow' it. I think problem with bio is the amount of land that would be required to grow enough to satisfy the world.
Chip fat is a bio fuel, as it is Vegie oil.
But the tree huggers would still hate us... unless they found some other crusade or group to persecute.
-s
I saw a car carrier full of Lexus Hybrids today. This is the way all the manufacturers will go. I'll put money on a Disco3 Hybrid in about 3 years.
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| 11th Oct 2005 8:57 pm |
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irf
Member Since: 28 Sep 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 106
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Bio diesel is a bio fuel made from veg oil but is processed through transesterfication to remove glycerine . It is also thinner than veg oil which means that unlike veg oil you can use it as is rather than thinning or heating.
The problem with bio diesel is that it softens rubber, causing problems with seals and hoses, although concentrations of 10% bio/ 90% ordinary diesel should be OK.
Although I knew this already, I had read that newer cars used butyl which didn't suffer in the same way, so I thought I'd call LR to see what they would say.
I just asked some generic questions about why the statement in the handbook and they came back to me within 24hrs with the "damages rubber parts" line.
They also answered a couple of other questions I had - running a petrol LR on LPG will invalidate the warranty, and the TD6 does not met Euro IV emissions standard.
Not that I'm a tree hugger - I was just interested in whether a D3 could be run on something cheaper and which happened to be cleaner also.
Veg oil can be used in diesel engines but it needs to be thinned (some say with 3% white spirit) or heated to make it thinner.
There are other problems reported with veg oil at 30%- sooting of injectors, mis firing, starting problems but my research and experience suggests a mix of 10% should be OK.
My take on it all is that by the time you've fiddled around buying the stuff in 3litre bottles from Tesco and adding to the diesel at 10% the savings are probably not worth the effort, and even less so once you factor in possible maintenance problems and the tax that you're supposed to find a way of paying.
What might have been worth it is setting up a plant in my barn to make bio diesel at around 40p/ litre but unless I could run the D3 at 100% bio the payback time would be too long.
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| 11th Oct 2005 9:00 pm |
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DrLex
Member Since: 15 Jul 2005
Location: Ciderspace [Oi be in Zummerset]
Posts: 4863
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You might also find that the change in fuel economy reduces the reason to switch. A friend told me he tried running the fleet at one depot (mainly commercial vehicles) on a 10% bio/90% derv mix and recorded a 15-20% drop in economy. Needs a tax break to encourage wider use, methinks. Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
Member of Club Med Sucks
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| 11th Oct 2005 11:04 pm |
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HA-YAL
Member Since: 26 Sep 2005
Location: Normandy
Posts: 8
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On tree huggers: In Europe, they just cannot make up their mind regarding biofuels. In the US and Canada, they have. Australia had a huge problem with biofuels about 10 years ago which did damage the industry.
On land required: There are different biofuels and for some, no additional land is required. For instance, my company makes cellulose ethanol. We take straw - a residue (only about 10% of straw is used for animal bedding, etc), we pre-treat it, stick the enzyme and produce the ethanol. two 500kgs round bales make 300 liters of ethanol. more at www.iogen.ca
On the technological problems: car manufacturers sometimes tend to say that ethanol creates all sorts of technological problems in the engines (hoses, vapour pressure, etc). Are these the same car manufacturers that sell flex-fuel vehicles in Brazil where the customer choose to fuel up on pure ethanol or on regular gazoline, depending on the price at the pump? Yep! The technology is ready - it's just not widely available in Europe...yet
In Sweden, Ford have sold several thousands of Ford Focus running on E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gazoline). Saab is about to launch its top of the range E85 vehicle too.
Biofuels in Europe is a political market where 3 huge lobbies have to come together: Car manufacturers, oil industry, farming industry
Incidentally: In Europe, all sectors covered by the UN Convention on Climate change and the Kyoto Protocol have decreased their emissions by about 13% since 1990, except one: transport whose emissions have risen by 25% over the period. Road transport represents about 85% of all transport emissions. There is not much more that car manufacturers can do to reduce emissions further...except bringing in cleaner fuels.
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| 12th Oct 2005 9:41 am |
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