DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
  
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| MY12 D4 - split charging issues |
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Dont know if you are aware but the charging on the MY12 and beyond is a little different.
i have a National Lunar split charge power pack system that senses the voltage increase when the engine is started and then activates the relay to start charging the aux battery, which then disconnects when the voltage drops - ie the engine is switched off.
however, the newer D4s are slightly different. the alternator can still put out 14ish volts which is fine, and this activates the relay, but, once its been running for a while the alternator appears to completly stop charging and the main battery voltage can reduce to 12.0 volts! - which isnt enough to activate the relay so the split charge system thinks the engine is off and disconnects.
had the wiring fitted at APB Trading , Phil said he had been having this discussion with Autologic and National lunar as has found the issue on another D4. apparently NL etc are having the issue elswhere. Have been monitoring the alternator output. Even with the two heated seats on and the front and rear heated windows and it was still showing 12.2v. - whereas in the D3 it would immedeatly increase the charge
after a while the voltage slowly increased to 13.7 (when the NL relay kicked in) and then upto over 14v.
so the end result is that the aux battery gets sparadic charges rather than a continous charge.
it seem the newer D4s let the battery voltage drop quite low before continuing the charging
it will be interesting to see if this can properly charge the battery in the camping trailer after an evening of fridge, lights and propex heater use. I still have to test what it does if the aux battery in flat - in theiory i am hoping it will still charge and not drop the voltage, but that doesnt seem to be the case on low volt aux battery at the moment. Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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 12th Nov 2012 6:35 pm |
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Ent
Member Since: 12 Oct 2007
Location: In the cack
Posts: 6488
 
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Dunc
I've read something similar about this issue but I seem to remember that the NL VSR can be adjusted to take this into consideration. This was pre MY12 so it might be another issue that will need a coat of looking at. Club Exped trailer
Club Timed Climate
Club Flappy paddle steering wheel
Club 300bhp
Club Prospeed test pilot/lab rat
Club National Luna Stella conditioner
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| 12th Nov 2012 6:57 pm |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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Hi DiscoDunc and this problem is now common with a number of makes.
Toyotas and new Nissans are a problem when it comes to charging batteries but the D4 gets around this by continually raising the voltage when the load reduces on the motor.
We have a FORD Ranger over here, don’t know what it’s called over there but it’s a rebadged Mazada and there is no way to charge auxiliary batteries in these vehicles.
Whereas there are loads of folks over here, towing camper trailers and caravans with D4s and not having any issues charging auxiliary and house batteries when their D4 is fitted with one of my isolators. 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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| 12th Nov 2012 7:03 pm |
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gseum
Member Since: 15 Feb 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 167
  
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Hi,
I have a similar relay T-MAX DBS02 and only problems with the second battery connected! The car battery will not be loaded properly and the second battery will go down fast.
Obvoiusly the BatteryManagementSystem will not charge properly, when the second battery is connected.
I did a lot of tests (even with manually connecting the second battery before start) and I get always "Battery low" after short time.
I now have the second battery disconnected and the car battery is in good condition, no more "battery low".
@drivesafe: Why could your system probably work instead of the T-Max? What is the technical difference?
I am thinking of a CTEK 12 V to 12 V charger, which does not connect the batteries directly and works like a normal electrical consumer fpr the BMS...
Glad about more information!
Greetings
gseum Discovery 4/LR4 HSE 5.0 V8 MY2010 // Volvo XC60 II T8 Inscription Fusion Red MY2020 // Hyundai Kona Electric Trend MY2020 // Bürstner TravelVan 620G MY2020
Last edited by gseum on 12th Nov 2012 8:02 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 12th Nov 2012 7:46 pm |
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PSC
Member Since: 01 May 2006
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 255
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| Re: MY12 D4 - split charging issues |
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DiscoDunc wrote:Dont know if you are aware but the charging on the MY12 and beyond is a little different.
Just a thought - what happens if you have a "dummy" trailer connected to the towing circuitry ?
The other option is a DC/DC converter (CTEK ?) - however you will have switch it based on oil pressure or engine RPM to ensure that it only runs with the engine operating - The current charging regime does not bode well for the primary battery life
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| 12th Nov 2012 7:59 pm |
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gseum
Member Since: 15 Feb 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 167
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About the CTEK I just read drivesafes statement here: http://disco4.com/forum/post1002376.html#1002376
Any other solutions for this sensible D4 BMS and a second battery?
Greetings
gseum Discovery 4/LR4 HSE 5.0 V8 MY2010 // Volvo XC60 II T8 Inscription Fusion Red MY2020 // Hyundai Kona Electric Trend MY2020 // Bürstner TravelVan 620G MY2020
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| 12th Nov 2012 8:01 pm |
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Splitpin
Member Since: 30 Dec 2010
Location: At the toolbox
Posts: 535
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I would be interested to see how it behaved if the second battery was very flat to start with.
Would it not drag the main battery low enough to keep the charging requirement triggered on the vehicle... Perhaps
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| 12th Nov 2012 8:05 pm |
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PSC
Member Since: 01 May 2006
Location: Johannesburg
Posts: 255
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There are quite a few DC/DC charging systems available (higher output ones are a bit large) - They do have an efficiency loss however. The ideal is just to get the alternator to do it's job ....
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| 12th Nov 2012 8:12 pm |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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gseum wrote:Hi,
I have a similar relay T-MAX DBS02 and only problems with the second battery connected! The car battery will not be loaded properly and the second battery will go down fast.
Obvoiusly the BatteryManagementSystem will not charge properly, when the second battery is connected.
I did a lot of tests (even with manually connecting the second battery before start) and I get always "Battery low" after short time.
I now have the second battery disconnected and the car battery is in good condition, no more "battery low".
@drivesafe: Why could your system probably work instead of the T-Max? What is the technical difference?
Hi gseum and the reason my system works is because unlike all other systems, where they simply disconnect the auxiliary battery when the motor is turned off, or shortly there after, my isolators keep the batteries connected together until the common voltage of ALL the batteries reaches 12.0v.
At this point, the batteries are isolated.
My isolators have been doing this for more than 20 years and this operating feature is now more relevant than ever before.
As for your batteries not charging properly while the two are connected together, I have no idea why this is the case as there are now well over a thousand D4s world-wide with my isolators fitted and there has not been one single report of one battery charging and another not charging.
Furthermore, when D4s have been getting “Low Battery†messages before my system is installed, with only two exceptions, ( and there turned out to be a software problem in these two vehicles ), with in a week or so of fitting one of my systems, the messages stop.
The reason for this is as I pointed out, unlike other isolators, mine do NOT disconnect when the motor is turned off. So the higher charged auxiliary battery then slowly discharges back into the cranking battery, and over a short period of time, raises the cranking battery’s settled voltage.
This means the cranking battery will always be in a higher state of charge which in turn means it has an easier time starting the motor and it also means the cranking battery will have a longer life span.
So if you do the math, my system, long term, works out cheaper than anything else. It literally pays for itself. 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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| 12th Nov 2012 8:27 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
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drivesafe,
would you still not have a problem that if the aux battery was quite flat, the D4 alternator would not charge it fully or take a lot longer because the alternator is pushing out a lot less volts. at one point the alternator was showing no charge at all - only for about 30seconds though, it then went back to 12.2 and then steadily crept up to 14.??
i still have to test what the D4 will do if the Car Aux and trailer Aux are very low - would the D4 recognise this and keep the voltage high - or would it just monitor the main battery. Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 12th Nov 2012 8:59 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
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Ent wrote:Dunc
I've read something similar about this issue but I seem to remember that the NL VSR can be adjusted to take this into consideration. This was pre MY12 so it might be another issue that will need a coat of looking at.
I have the new circuit board for the D4, but this effect is new on the MY12 apparently. as drivesafe says is quite common feature on most new vehicles so i'm waiting for updated circuit boards.
shouldnt be a big problem for long journeys but may not charge the aux battery fully on short journeys ??? time will tell Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 12th Nov 2012 9:01 pm |
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Russell
Member Since: 23 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564
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Is this not the regenerative charging, eg the alternator looks at times when it can charge and maintain fuel economy. In other words when battery above certain voltage it will nit charge unless the vehicle is in an over run situation. MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
MY15 D4 HSE Kaikoura Stone
MY12 D4 HSE Nara Bronze Sold and gone
MY11 D4 HSE Stornaway Grey Sold and gone
D3 S spec Silver Sold and gone
Tow bar, full length roof bars, side steps, tow bar storage unit, surround camers.
D4 camera club
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| 12th Nov 2012 9:19 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
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no idea how it works... i put on all the heated stuff plus the main beam and it was still showing 12.2 volts 
I can manually (via the controller) join the main and aux battery in the car so not a big problem - cant do that to the trailer battery unless I activate on the trailer.. Duncan
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If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 12th Nov 2012 9:21 pm |
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xtc
Member Since: 27 Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 1072
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These are good, not had any problems with them in new D4's. Plus they are rated at 300a so good if you are running a winch with the engine running off the aux battery. They also dual sense from both batteries. (Not much point in firing up the link relay from the aux battery though if the main battery / alternator are at a lower voltage!).
We tend to have them as temporary fits in support vehicles with 2-4 batteries in the loadspace for events. (A 3kW inverter and capachino machine last time..  ).
http://www.power-store.com/view-item.asp?i...d=197& Off Roading is OK.... But I'd rather be Boating!
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| 12th Nov 2012 11:09 pm |
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drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
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Hi again Duncan and when you test the voltage, start your test from before the motor is started and then monitor for the next hour.
The reason for this is that as you are using two Optimas, the crucial charging time is in the first hour of driving.
See what you come up with and post it up here.
I would be interested to see what you find, as you might be surprised! 2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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| 12th Nov 2012 11:33 pm |
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