DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Discovery 4 SDV6 DIY engine rebuild, Body on ;)

LR4_NO

Member Since: 26 Feb 2023
Location: Buskerud
Posts: 20

2013 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Lux Auto Indus Silver

Discovery 4 SDV6 DIY engine rebuild, Body on ;)

I have a 2013 Discovery 4 SDV6 3.0 Diesel with now 180.000 km and 2 weeks ago I found a good amount of metal shavings in the oil filter.

So what now?

After researching many threads here and many youtube videos its clear that the engine has to come out to assess the damage.
Contacted my independent LR garage for the possibility for them to take out the engine, but that they were not really interested.
Then I found Brg90's thread of a impressive home made body removal device(https://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic189350.html) and thought maybe i could copi this in my garage.
After I posted some questions in the Thread I was encouraged to go the Body on engine removal pass,
thanks for the tips Breg90 and Mastertech

Yesterday i decluttered and prepped the garage and tomorrow I try to get the AC degassed so that I can get started.

The plan is:

I have a couple of questions that maybe someone here has an answer to:

Sebastian

Short update:

I can see many have read the thread but no reply which is a little bit strange...

the extremely cold weather here right now has stopped progress until i get my propan heat canon to warm the garage.

I used the time to create parts lists with parts numbers, where to buy, essential or not and cost.
Then I have had a look at the Disco 4 manual and tried to rearrange the topics to get a manual with the chapters in the right order.
Maybe someone can comment on the order I want to do this:

- Engine Cover, Intake parts, Airbox, Cooling Fan
- Accessory Drive belt and Pulleys
- Drain Cooling, Cooling Fan Shroud, cooling hoses, Thermostat, Drain Motor oil
- Wheel arch liners, Turbo Bypass valve/hoses
- Radiator pack
- Disassemble rest of the front to get better access
- Starter motor
- Timing Cover and align flywheel/crankshaft/camshaft
- disassemble battery box and on the opposite side for better access
- Start mark connectors/ harness routing on top of the engine, disassemble parts on top of the engine
- EGR valves, Intake Shutoff valve, Glow plug harness, Fuel Rails
- Turbo Chargers, Exhaust manifolds, Rear End Accessory Drive
- Oil cooler, Oil Separator, Fuel Pump/Fuel Lines
- Valve Covers, Disassemble Heads
- Generator, Servo Pump, AC Pump

This should leave a short block with oil pan bolted to the transmission

- Turbo Crossover Pipe, transmission bolts, Engine mounts

Engine Block comes out

ANY Comments?

5th Mar 2023 7:23 pm

LR4_NO

Member Since: 26 Feb 2023
Location: Buskerud
Posts: 20

Hi

Here is a little update on the progress.

After about 20-22 hours in garage the engine is completely out of the car.
Marked all of the accessible connectors with tape and numbers and took many, many pictures

Click image to enlarge

Most time consuming were rusted/striped bolts/nuts and the fact that the engine is not intended to get disassembled in the car ->a lot of running back and forth to get stuff of.
Had to fabricate a tool to hold the crankshaft pulley to loosen the bolt ->will customizes this to fit the camshaft pulleys as well

What I found during the disassembly that I didnt expect:

Next steps was to measure the crankshaft to order main bearings ->made a wooden "holder" for the crankshaft to rest in while measuring

Click image to enlarge

The shells have the locator tang so the question is to order the original Ford bearings or choose aftermarked Kings/FAI without the tang?

...would highly appreciate comments here....

The block is in the engine mount and I cleaned all the oily/grease dirt on the outside and did the first wash with oil based thinner on the inside, scraped off all sealing rest, deburred all machined faces, removed "glaze" from cylinder bores....
Disassembled one cylinder head, removed all valves, cleaned them ->will do the same with the other head and then wash them and lap all the valves the next couple of days.
Clean the carbon buildup from the pistons

Have made extensive parts lists and ordered the first parts.
Plan for the bearings for now is:

If this is not a good ide, please comment

PS:
A general note on the crankshaft
It maybe has a "weak" design as some people call it.
What struck me is the overall poor finish, especially the machined edges.
On my crankshaft almost every edge is extremally sharp, some have burrs sharp as razorblades.
There was although a little chip stuck on one edge, it broke off when I wiggled it.
This chip could have really damaged the internals

Last edited by LR4_NO on 29th Mar 2023 7:56 pm. Edited 2 times in total

29th Mar 2023 11:37 am

ClassikFan

Member Since: 02 Nov 2016
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1027

2008 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Loire Blue

Watching with interest

Just 'cause you got the power... that don't mean you got the right.

29th Mar 2023 12:51 pm

popsdosh

Member Since: 09 Nov 2009
Location: cambs
Posts: 442

2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Graphite LE Auto Corris Grey

I would get the crank checked out by somebody who knows what theyre doing as the bearing wear would suggest a distortion in the crank and that is in that area where they go . Dont believe what anybody says there is no guarantee of any crank fitted in that engine not failing due to the position of the oil drillings .
Personally I would have gone for a JLR rebuilt engine from the outset with 2yr warranty . Thats why the indy wasnt interested as at that age they are often not considered economical to do.

30th Mar 2023 7:07 am

LR4_NO

Member Since: 26 Feb 2023
Location: Buskerud
Posts: 20

Hi popsdosh, thanks for the reply.

The uneconomical part is the biggest hindrance here.
There is really nobody doing rebuilds on these engines, prices for sourced rebuild engines have skyrocketed ->the indy told me 35% price increase in a year and hard to get.

To the wear pattern I have to say the the bearing shells in the picture are not lying in the right order.
...maybe i should have thought of that...

I have had the crank in the block bolted to main 1 and 4 to measure any distortion in main 2 and 3 and it is inside the tolerance.

I contacted the one company I trust and they agreed to measure/polish the crank -> they are not really a big fan of this engines after some bad experience.

A question:
I would always assume more wear in the 2 middle bearings(especially on the lower bearing shell) because this part gets the most stress in the combustion stroke/cycle. The slightly uneven wear at the flywheel/transmission side I would consider normal because of the crank flexing, OR?

Regards
Sebastian

30th Mar 2023 10:11 am

Breg90

Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348

2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 XS Manual Java Black

LR4_NO,

Bearings:

King only do one size. JLR/Ford do 3 sizes to suit the bearing journal diameter and the block/con rod bore diameter bores - select bearing to give desired clearance. So if you are building an engine to last I'd go ford. But others have used King. Key part is getting the right clearance - Ford change between bearing sizes to keep at the upper end of the bearing clearances stated. I'd not be afraid of going to the higher end of the bearing clearances (providing the bore ovality is good - see below).

I bought Ford bearings from Tasca Parts. Search for the Ford F150 King Lariat model with the 3.0 V6 - its the same core engine. No other American parts retailer that I could find would ship internationally. You might find that some other parts from here are cheaper than the LR offerings, like oil pumps (note it will be a gen 2 oil pump).

I'd work out what your engine sizes were originally:

Crank:
There are codes on the crank (letters) that give you the original journal diameters. I think you will find that the crank has been polished in service and is slightly under the original size. But note you need to measure to a very high accuracy - 0.001mm graduated micrometer - parts and micrometer allowed to stabilize in a room at 20C, a standard or slip gauges to check micrometer against.

Block:
Main bearing bore original sizes are coded as well - look at the front of the block where the idler pully bolts on - there will be a series of numbers. Measure up block. Note that the main bearing caps will need to be fully torqued in the correct sequence to get an accurate measurement. I think you will find that the block main bearing bores are oval & have reduced in diameter vertically & spread horizontally. The Ford tolerance for this is 0.007 mm ovality (7 microns). I perceive that the bottom of the block spreads slightly - this results in the main bearing caps spreading (they are fitted as an interference, so are 'squashed' in). This spreading reduces the vertical clearance in the bearing (& I think caused your bearing issues). Hence I believe you will find a high main bearing bore bearing ovality if you measure it up.
Again the tolerances are tiny, so everything at a stable 20C to allow measurement in my view.

Con rods:
They have a number code on the cap that corresponds to the original size. From that you can order the correct con rod bearings from Ford/Tasca parts. Again 3 sizes of bearing shells to get correct clearances. My conrods measured up perfectly to that size and within ovality tolerance.

Current bearing shell sizes:
All bearing shells have a colour code on them - on the side of the shell at the middle will be a 10mm stripe of paint, either yellow, blue or red. Note what was fitted. IF your block, crank and con rods measure up to original sizes you could just order up bearing as per the original bearing 'colour codes' and fit them.
Exception - 2.7 main bearing shells are a standard top size and only vary the bottom shell thickness to give the required clearance. The 3.0 varies both shells.

Finally I'd be getting the crank checked for cracks before spending to much. Ideally Fluorescent Dye Penetrant or basic red dye penetrant (you can do this your self).

Hope that helps,

Adrian Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits

30th Mar 2023 3:22 pm

LR4_NO

Member Since: 26 Feb 2023
Location: Buskerud
Posts: 20

Hi Adrian

Thanks for the reply and all the info.
Hope you are making progress with your Disco as well

I had a look at the block and found this numbers in the front where you described

Click image to enlarge

Do they mean the size over the nominal size of 75mm ->75.008/75.008/75.007/75.007?

Do you have any clue to deceiver the original parts numbers on the bearing shells?
...there is no identifiable paint marks on the shells...
Mine have 9Q6338BA/D4D/C(upper main 1-3), 9Q6331CA/D4D/A(lower main 1-3), 9Q6337BA/D4D/A1(upper main 4) and 9Q6A339CA/D4D/B0(lower main 4)

The lower conrod shells have paint markings, the upper ones with greenish surface finish havent.

I found getoemparts.com which would ship internationally, Tasca was out of stock for a lot of the parts I looked at.

One other problem is the temperature in the basement where the block is, its 16-17 degrees.
Its to cold outside to get the temperature up to a stable 20 degrees.

Regards
Sebastian

30th Mar 2023 5:17 pm

Breg90

Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348

Sebastian,

For the block bore sizes you have the right numbers. 08 equates to 78.008mm bore diameter etc.

You need the letters off the crank next - there should be a group of 4 - main bearing journals and a group of 6 - big end journals.

For measuring up a stable temperature around 'room temp' is what is needed (I believe that a metrology room would be kept at 20C). Your basement will be OK.

Thinking about what you are saying with regard to bearing shells:

2.7 - I know that this has:
Main bearings - fixed upper shell size and 4 variable thickness
Big end bearings - Fixed lower shell and 3 variable thickness upper shells

3.0 Gen 2 - I know this has:
Main bearings - 3 thickness of upper & Lower bearing shells
Big end bearings - 3 thickness of upper and lower bearing shells

I've not stripped a 3.0 , so thinking that the earlier 2.7 bearing strategy was carried over into the gen 1 3.0's. In that case the later bearings will be an upgrade - they are splutter coated so have a higher load capability.

In terms of picking the right shells for your engine bearings you need the size charts. I have a Ford document for the 2.7 that gives these. But as you can't get these bearings that is no use to you. I also promised the person that I got the document from that I would not forward it on.

There is some data in the LR manual from TOPIX's - BUT ITS WRONG - Looks like they cut and pasted randomly data from another engine. It is definitely not applicable to to the 2.7, not sure if the manual for the 3.0 engines is better.

You can get a table for the 3.0 Gen 2 engine out of the Ford F150 3.0V6 King Lariat workshop manual. J.Presez pointed me towards these (full manual is in his gallery). See the link to my thread below that has the F150 tables in (at bottom of the page):

https://disco3.co.uk/forum/rusty-boot-floo...0-195.html

HOWEVER again it seems to have mistakes - For example:

1/. It has max and min clearance per shell combination, but the biggest clearance is in the min box and the smallest clearance is in the max box.
2/. Some of the clearances are above the maximum allowed for the bearing.

If you measure up new shell thicknesses they all seem to be at the average thickness - I have measured a full set of both red and yellow main bearing shells - all were at average thickness. If you recalculate the table using the average thickness this means that the shell selection changes at the max allowable clearance for the bearing. I have set this out in an excel sheet, see below for your information. NOTE - this a spreadsheet I developed - it is not official LR or Ford data. So use with caution.

https://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/us...ev_1_0.pdf

My final thought - the gen 2 engine ran with larger bearing clearances than the 2.7. Not sure what the early 3.0 engines had. Personally I'd embrace that increased clearance providing that your main bearing bores are not oval (will allow excess leakage oil from bearings). However note that Gen2 engines regulate the oil pressure at the gallery above the bearings (after filter, cooler etc), NOT at the pump like the 2.7 and earlier 3.0 engines.

Adrian Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits

31st Mar 2023 1:27 pm

LR4_NO

Member Since: 26 Feb 2023
Location: Buskerud
Posts: 20

Hi Adrian

Thanks again for all the effort you put into this.

I think my engine is a gen1 3.0.
It has bearing location tangs but not the valve that regulates the oil pressure on the oilpump.

The markings on the crankshaft read
OOOO 03
JJMMMH

that should mean 69.984 for all the mains and 62.967/62.967/62.970/62.970/62.970/62.965 for the journals

All my measurement are inside the tolerance of the micrometer I use +/- 0.001.

All the main shells I have measured where 2.492 which would mean Yellow on the lower end of the thickness.
The measurement of the block will decide the shell combination, but i will plastigauge the bearings as well.
I will use the old bolts for all the measurement and new ones for the end assembly.

I had a thought about the table from the Ford Powerstroke manual:

Maybe the min/max refers to the min/max values of the shell thickness, this would fit the table.
That there are combinations that are over the maximum allowed would just mean use another shell that is not on the lower end of the tolerance. ->that would mean you should although measure the shell thickness to avoid lower/upper ends of the tolerance specter ->this should be possible in assembly because you have a assortment of shells but not possible in this extend when you order shells for one engine.

Will do the measuring of the block, conrods and pistons this weekend.

31st Mar 2023 6:55 pm

Mastertech

Member Since: 13 Apr 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 126

2010 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway Grey

I’ve just noticed this thread, glad to see you managed to get the engine out and stripped without issue. Looks like Breg is helping you with the all important bearing sizes. Does the F150 crankshaft fit? I would think the difference if there was one would be at the pulley end as it has a different oil pump. Personally if it does I would buy one. By the time you’ve crack tested, measured and polished yours you might as well for the cost put a new one in. I would also use the F150 bearings so you can correctly size them and they have the tabs which make alignment when fitting easier.

Have you considered your oil choice for your rebuild. Ford recommends 5w40 for vehicles in arduous usage which I would say fitted in a disco is arduous by any standard.

2nd Apr 2023 10:23 am

popsdosh

Member Since: 09 Nov 2009
Location: cambs
Posts: 442

I have been lead to believe the f150 crank will not fit as the bearings are so much bigger the block will not accommodate them.

2nd Apr 2023 11:04 am

LR4_NO

Member Since: 26 Feb 2023
Location: Buskerud
Posts: 20

Hi Mastertech and popsdosh

Thanks for your replys.

Iam not shure about the F150 crankshaft.

The only thing I can say is that the main and journal diameter listed in the F150 Manual is the same as my crankshaft.
And Adrian has proven the F150 bearings fit, so I would think there is no difference at all.

So if it is the same the only difference would be the price.
For my it would be about half of the price importing a crankshaft from the UK ->they have become quite expensive and many "copies" have popped up.

I talked to a renowned UK based engine rebuilder last week and he told me they would normally not reuse a crank with 180.000 km.
So Iam now consider a new crank.
Does anybody know if there are custom or billet crankshafts out there that er better then the genuine LR ones?

Regards
Sebastian

2nd Apr 2023 5:25 pm

Mastertech

Member Since: 13 Apr 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 126

popsdosh wrote:
I have been lead to believe the f150 crank will not fit as the bearings are so much bigger the block will not accommodate them.

That would be incorrect as breg has a full bearing set and reports they are the same size.

2nd Apr 2023 5:59 pm

Breg90

Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348

LR4_NO wrote:
Hi Mastertech and popsdosh

Thanks for your replys.

Iam not shure about the F150 crankshaft.

The only thing I can say is that the main and journal diameter listed in the F150 Manual is the same as my crankshaft.
And Adrian has proven the F150 bearings fit, so I would think there is no difference at all.

So if it is the same the only difference would be the price.
For my it would be about half of the price importing a crankshaft from the UK ->they have become quite expensive and many "copies" have popped up.

I talked to a renowned UK based engine rebuilder last week and he told me they would normally not reuse a crank with 180.000 km.
So Iam now consider a new crank.
Does anybody know if there are custom or billet crankshafts out there that er better then the genuine LR ones?

Regards
Sebastian

It's easy to fit parts because new is better. It's harder to assess and make judgement calls.

Fit a crank of dubious origins (fake??) - very easy decision - measure up yours and if OK get it crack checked. If OK re fit.

Fit a new LR/Ford crank - if you can afford it then another easy decision. But if the cost of it is ££££ to you then the hard decision beckons.

Use your old crank - You have had a bearing failure that some times comes with crank failure. So it's high risk unless you mitigate this. If it measures up OK and the journal surface finishes are OK then I would get it checked for cracks using a fluorescent dye penetrant. Not sure if this is DIYable. And think you need the reassurance of a professional check as the cost of the rest of the build will not be a few ££.

My thoughts. There will be other ways to tackle this.

Ford F150 crank - I 'GUESS' it is the same. Why one earth would Ford have 2 cranks in production for the same engine. The drive is the same for the oil pump - I have a Ford F150 oil pump bought from Ford America as a 'Ford F150 part'. The drive for the pump is identical. In fact when you open the Ford branded box you get a pump with 'Jaguar Land Rover' cast into it.

As to the Ford F150 engine having 'bigger bearings' - It does not. I have samples of every size big end and journal bearings from Ford USA for a Ford F150 3.0 TDV6 - they fit into a 2.7 (if you machine the anti-rotation groove for the main bearings). And the Ford F150 workshop manual gives the tolerance for the Journal diameters & Block/rod bores. These match the sizes in the Ford 2.7 liter TDV6 build instruction I have from ~ 2003/2004.

Hope this helps,

Adrian Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits

3rd Apr 2023 12:35 am

Breg90

Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348

I think you need to decide why your bearings failed. If you can answer this, then you can add this to 'new crank or not' decision.

Based on my experience I would carefully measure the block - I think you will find the main bearing bores are oval. You will need a 0.001 mm graduated bore micrometer. If they are oval I'd predict that the vertical clearance has reduced below the original due to the block spreading.

I'd be very interested in you measuring the interference fit between the bearing caps and block On a 2.7 the interference fit should be -0.150 to -0.02mm. See the picture below with the tolerances and the results of measuring up two 2.7 TDV6's That I have worked on:

Click image to enlarge

If you are willing to share this information that would be of interest to me.

Cap width measurement:

Block width measurement with slip gauges:

Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits

3rd Apr 2023 1:07 am