Member Since: 25 Nov 2019
Location: Leeds
Posts: 8
Automatic gearbox: flush and filter or just flush?
I've just picked up a 2006 2.7 TDV6 auto with 115k on the clock and 11 years worth of farmyard in the carpets. Otherwise it seems to be in surprisingly good shape and it drives very nicely.
There's a bit of service history with it and I can see that it's had regular oil and filter changes and the belts were done recently, so that's good. Nothing to suggest it's had the automatic gearbox oil and filter changed though.
It's going to need a full service straight off with all fluids and filters to be changed (inc diff oils and transfer box oil), and I'd like to get the gearbox flushed while I'm at it as preventative maintenance. My question is, is it worth having the gearbox flushed but not replace the filter at the same time, or is this a false economy?
I'm in two minds as on the one hand I could do with keeping the cost down and I've been advised that it isn't always necessary to change the filter. On the other hand I don't like the idea of mixing nice fresh oil with a manky old filter.
As the vehicle is new to me I'm slightly wary of dumping a load of cash into it at this stage, so if I can save the £250 on the filter change that would be great. If it's not worth skimping though I guess I'll have to bite the bullet.
Any advice gratefully received!
25th Nov 2019 7:33 pm
kajtzu
Member Since: 11 Aug 2017
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6698
Welcome.
Please do a search of the forums. There are plenty of opinions and supporters of all of the following methods:
- drop pan, new filter, change oil (dilutes, does not replace it all)
- megaflush (properly done replaces all ATF, adds conditioners, etc.)
- filo flush (home made flushing)
Personally I’d do a megaflush but that’s just me.
25th Nov 2019 7:37 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4988
You could do a double drain and flush for now with a view to a complete drain flush / filter change later on or when funds allow. Remember too that you will be changing the fluid every 40k or so from here on.
The important thing is to change the fluid at least, as opposed to doing nothing!yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
25th Nov 2019 7:47 pm
Rich C
Member Since: 25 Nov 2019
Location: Leeds
Posts: 8
Ok thanks, pretty much sold on the idea of a megaflush
Just wondered whether the consensus was to change the filter as well at this sort of mileage (115k) or if people generally just have the oil pumped out and replaced. If it's not a false economy I'll probably settle for that for the time being and look to have the filter changed at some point next year.
25th Nov 2019 7:54 pm
kajtzu
Member Since: 11 Aug 2017
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6698
Plenty of people, including me, have not changed the filter. Mine had ~192k km (~ 120k miles) when I got the megaflush done in 2017. No issues then, no issues since. Knock on wood etc.
25th Nov 2019 8:34 pm
lynalldiscovery
Member Since: 22 Dec 2009
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 7274
I just change the oil annually, pump it out via the cooler pipe and refill with the exact same amount, you obviously do not get it all, in fact I reckon you only get half of it, but it is cheap/easy/fast.
Mannol 55 I think, off of ebay.
Search for Filos gearbox oil change thread good reading.
26th Nov 2019 8:01 am
Gorilla63
Member Since: 18 May 2019
Location: Bewdley
Posts: 443
Anyone used Millermatic?
26th Nov 2019 2:11 pm
darrind
Member Since: 04 Jul 2008
Location: In A World of My Own!
Posts: 2871
I Buy Manoll 55 off a well known auction site - its a german vendor. 20l in a drum for around £70 good for a few flushes and far cheaper than buying in the UK. arrives in 2 days
Sorry forgot to add - the last car had a new metal sump and replaceable filter but seemed a little leaky so i didn't bother on the current oneMust stop buying shiny toys....
Last edited by darrind on 26th Nov 2019 7:43 pm. Edited 1 time in total
26th Nov 2019 4:50 pm
GarageSteve
Member Since: 11 Aug 2019
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 28
I replaced the filter when I did mine on a 2006 with 120000 miles on the clock, I put the conversion kit on with separate filter etc, I cut the old filter open and it was full of crud, so for me I was glad I did it, I changed the oil twice and it’s been fine sinceCurrent fleet
BMW X1
Kangoo van
Pug 108
MGF
26th Nov 2019 6:33 pm
Rich C
Member Since: 25 Nov 2019
Location: Leeds
Posts: 8
Thanks all for the pointers. Booked in for a megaflush and filter change next week along with a full service. Not ideal for my wallet but at least I'll know where I stand with it going forward.
Will be interesting to see if it makes a noticable difference to the smoothness of the box. Feels fine to me but there again it's the only one I've ever driven!
29th Nov 2019 7:30 pm
Keefaaa
Member Since: 26 Sep 2017
Location: The North
Posts: 55
Sorry to chip in with the complete opposite but there is much spurious information on the forums when it comes to oil and gearbox oil in particular. And I can't sleep.
Firstly, a flush should only be necessary if your oil is leaving varnish or other surface contaminants on your gear teeth. The negative side affects of flushing chemicals outweigh the economics of a flush in most vehicle oil changes. The reason being is that when you do flush you will introduce further contaminants that are designed to break down a broad range of chemical bases that may or may not be present, thus new oil and it's additives when introduced will also be affected. Now it is cited occasionally that further additives added after the flush will counter act these issues but the fact remains that your new oil has its own additives that are sensitive to contamination. Additionally, it is worth noting that if varnishing has occurred which is the most common reason for flushing, often it's so difficult to remove from the surfaces that it needs to be removed mechanically as flush chemicals aren't capable alone.
The additives are actually the wear part of your oil and essentially what your trying to replace when you replace your oil. Oil on its own will run in a 'good' environment for 20-30 years if treated right. It's the additives that we should be concerned with in our vehicles, the oil will far out last them. So contamination and destroying the additives is what you want to try and avoid. At all costs. In the industrial environment if we require a flush we know this from an inspection and can sometimes make a good guess that it is required based on the oil sample. If flushed we get around the above issues by literally cleaning the oil during the start up - this a mechanical procedure of micro straining the oil for particle contaminants.
Getting to an answer on what to do then. The answer lies with what condition the oil is in. How do you know the condition? Sample it. It's cheap and will cost you around £20 a sample. There are many good industrial labs that will sample your oil and tell you it's condition and that of your gearbox. If a bearings failing the report will distinguish it from gear wear. If it's contaminated it will tell you what and sometimes how. Your first sample will tell you your gearbox is dieing but you need to baseline it. Then sample regularly and you will continuously know the condition of your oil and gearbox. If it deteriorates you'll know what and how bad. Just sample more if you get an issue before you act.
Granted the are sometimes complaints of degraded oil conditions on discos where they don't change well and are 'gunked' up. You will see this with your sample understand it and can flush it with repeated oil changes without introduction of contaminants.
My advice is to sample your oil now. Replace and change the filter. Sample the new oil. Sample again at your next service. Continue to do so and change on condition.
In industry we call this approach Reliability or Proactive Maintenance. The flushing approach is termed Preventative Maintenance which to give some perspective was proven in 1940s to introduce more failures than doing nothing at all. About 80% of all equipment failure is random in nature. So your flush will only cover you for 20% of potential failure modes and introduce you some new ones you never had in the first place
30th Nov 2019 1:36 am
Bardley
Member Since: 02 May 2018
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 464
So for clarity..
The word 'Flush' when people are talking about auto gearbox fluid changes is referring usually to a setup where two pipes are connected, and a machine then pushes new fluid thro' the gearbox while it is running in order to flush nigh on all old fluid out, replacing with visibly new and clean.
Technically it's not a flush as I think the above post is referring to ( as in engine flushing.. in between an oil change).
The gearbox fluid change machine does just that, but has been termed 'flushing', and may well paint the wrong image if someone reads thro' posts.
Only ATF is put into the gearbox, not any other liquid in order to clean deposits.
The thought behind this is to replace as much fluid as possible in ine sitting, rather than intermediate changes where only some fluid is replaced. Not all fluid can be emptied from the Trans in one change. It simply does not all flow out as it is still left in the TC and other galleries.2011 MY D4 HSE
Previously 2001 D2 TD5, 1996 D1 300Tdi, 1985 90 2.2 petrol.
Bikes! KTM, BMW, British, Classics and others.
30th Nov 2019 1:35 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4988
Keefaaa wrote:
My advice is to sample your oil now. Replace and change the filter. Sample the new oil. Sample again at your next service. Continue to do so and change on condition.
"Your advice" as stated above is exactly what is practiced and promulgated on this forum and elsewhere with the exception of lab testing.
You don't lab test your engine oil if it needs to be changed, you just go and change it along with the filter. As Bardley points out this is what is meant by "flushing," and far from being "spurious information" as you claim, it is the recommended practice of the transmission manufacturer.yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
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