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euangibson
Member Since: 24 Dec 2010
Location: Borders
Posts: 11027
  
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| Oh,I can see that working.... |
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Beardy's at it again......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29356627 "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool,than to speak out and remove all doubt" ?.....what rubbish...
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 25th Sep 2014 7:06 am |
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Scarab
Member Since: 11 Jun 2011
Location: Hastings
Posts: 1283
  
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I think it's a good idea.
We run our company to the same kind of thing, ok we've got less than 50 staff not 170 - 50,000 but if you want time off and know you've got everything covered then there is no problem.
If you need to go into town in the middle of the afternoon to get your hair cut because it's too busy at the weekends and they shut at 5 then it really shouldn't be an issue.
It works because I don't employ idiots and everyone is more comfortable knowing that their life outside of work matters and they care about their career.
They won't just take off at 2pm on a Friday afternoon leaving a load of work hanging because they know it would cause issues and that, thankfully, isn't in the ethos of people we employ.
If you've got the right staff this kind of thing is a huge benefit for everyone.
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| 25th Sep 2014 7:30 am |
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euangibson
Member Since: 24 Dec 2010
Location: Borders
Posts: 11027
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Don't get me wrong,the theory is excellent....but you have hit the nail on the head,as you seem very fortunate to have the "right staff".....
Attendance records become obsolete for me,it becomes an HR nightmare....HR "you don't seem to be here very much".... Employee " you told me to take as many holidays as I wanted "......simplistic ?yes....potential issue ?...yes again.
This system relies on Human Nature,never a good starting point in my experience.....but then "cynical" is my middle name  "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool,than to speak out and remove all doubt" ?.....what rubbish...
Locking rear E-diff
RLD spare wheel protector & sump guard
Extended roof rails
Series 111 mudflaps
Black side tubes,grill and vents
Timed climate remote
Hids4u interior lights
D4 Firenze my2012 HSE
D3 Java 2005 SE manual (sold,sadly,thanks for the memories)
1966 '88 Series 2a....still starts in the morning better than I do...
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| 25th Sep 2014 7:42 am |
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Discologist
Member Since: 19 May 2014
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 541
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euangibson wrote:Attendance records become obsolete for me,it becomes an HR nightmare....HR "you don't seem to be here very much".... Employee " you told me to take as many holidays as I wanted "
Can I come and work for you? I've never been offered the opportunity to take as much leave as I like. 
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| 25th Sep 2014 7:49 am |
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NJSS
Member Since: 06 May 2009
Location: Catherington, Hampshire.
Posts: 10640
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I adopted something similar in an office environment.
There must be "rules" though, "core time" when everyone must be at work in a department.
"Minimum manning" - each department needs on or more people at all hours.
"Teams" - one or more member of each team must be at work at all times.
"Targets" - you can take lots of time off within reason, but you & your team must achieve your targets.
"Availability" - even if you are out of the office you must be available on your office provided mobile 'phone within certain hours.
I retired from this area over 10 years ago - so things have moved on. The basic criteria must be to employ people who can, and want to, excel in this environment.
Maternity leave & long term sickness can be difficult to manage in a small team, and impacts on those still at work.
Profit related pay works well in this environment, except that some people ask for it to be factored into basic pay to help with mortgage applications.
NJSS Am I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
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| 25th Sep 2014 8:28 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50971
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Don't forget that this is for Branson's core team who in general have worked for him at Campden Hill Road for years ....as for the rest, in my experience with Virgin despite being dressed up as a lovely fluffy companies to work for they generally wanted your blood from you in terms of hours.  21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 25th Sep 2014 8:36 am |
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Riccarton Disco
Member Since: 24 Jan 2013
Location: Scottish Borders
Posts: 565
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Sorry but I have to agree with both Scarab and Euan on this (on the fence  ).
Before I went into semi-retirement I was having a bit of banter with my MD (I was Engineering Projects Director) and I enquired how many days holiday I got per year. He responded by asking me how many I wanted 
We worked out that in the previous 5 years I'd averaged 10 days of leave per year yet this was never logged or recorded. Based on this we decided to leave things as they were 
Having said that I had several staff that were obsessed with how much holiday they had left and would take leave whether they had panic jobs pending or not (& I'm not talking pre-organised family holidays - just time off). Working mainly in the Nuclear industry projects couldn't simply be delayed so the rest of the team would have to work longer / harder to cover for them.
I in no way begrudge folk taking all the leave they are entitled to but wanting half a day off at short notice to go and buy some new clothes etc when the project they were working on had to be delivered the following day and wasn't ready was, in my opinion selfish and reckless. There is no way, as Euan says, that you could give these guys cart-blanche to take whatever leave they wanted - hell, they'd never be there!!
Mind you, where I work now (1 day per week to help out) staff can buy holidays if they like on top of the 25 days + bank holidays. Many buy 10 days (taken as salary sacrifice) and I think it works really well i.e. those that need more money don't take leave, those that want more time off can buy it (with managers approval of course).
I tried (very tongue in cheek) to buy 10 days last year. All was going well until the HR Manager worked out that I would get 10 weeks off work  Funnily enough my request was rejected!!!
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| 25th Sep 2014 8:39 am |
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astonbuilder
Member Since: 29 Sep 2006
Location: MIDLANDS
Posts: 8087
 
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Agree with NJSS.
I think you'll find many companies operate to that sort of level, it's a good compromise area that should create a win/win environment.
I really don't see how Richard Bransons idea can be rolled out in certain environments.
A manufacturing facility has to have a required level of manning to run, a fire crew needs a minimum number of heads to operate equipment, ground staff at airports to fuel and load/unload needs both jobs doing, etc. hundreds of examples such as that.
Then there is the 'right heads' scenario. OK for Argos to have required number of heads in 'across the board' but not if that means the warehouse is empty but front-of-house tills manned to the rafters.
One of those 'great ideas' that may work for him and his particular business (but don't see how across the board) yet cannot be rolled out to everyone.
I haven't even touched on the brain-dead unthinkers many businesses carry..........
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| 25th Sep 2014 8:41 am |
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euangibson
Member Since: 24 Dec 2010
Location: Borders
Posts: 11027
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Theoretical situation (or maybe not)...
You have 2 employees who work side-by-side.... X and Y...
They both get paid the same and you,as their employer,are very happy with what they produce.
They "cover" for one another (split lunchtimes/sickness/holiday/dentist etc)
One day X comes to you to say,while he likes Y and likes working with him,he's not happy covering for Y all the time,and Y has had 40 more days holiday this year while they both earn the same.
This is totally within the rules.
You cannot pay X more,as Y has done nothing "wrong"......they just have different work ethics,or have translated their holiday "entitlement" differently....and the situation is manageable in terms of output.
Productivity would suffer if you suggested to X that perhaps he should take another 40 days also......
Employment Law says Y has done nothing wrong according to the Terms of his Employment.
Solutions please ? "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool,than to speak out and remove all doubt" ?.....what rubbish...
Locking rear E-diff
RLD spare wheel protector & sump guard
Extended roof rails
Series 111 mudflaps
Black side tubes,grill and vents
Timed climate remote
Hids4u interior lights
D4 Firenze my2012 HSE
D3 Java 2005 SE manual (sold,sadly,thanks for the memories)
1966 '88 Series 2a....still starts in the morning better than I do...
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| 25th Sep 2014 9:35 am |
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Scarab
Member Since: 11 Jun 2011
Location: Hastings
Posts: 1283
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Excellent point Euan and a perfect example of a workplace where this wouldn't work.
I think I'm lucky in the industry we are in where we have certain flexibility and people generally aren't happy trudging through the same thing over and over again.
In my company we prefer to train our staff to be able to take on a whole project, as opposed to just do a single task within that project in a production line style format.
If all the staff are given ownership of an even amount of work, and their job is to ensure that it's completed to a high standard then you are much less likely to have the scenario you mention.
Yes tasks get 'covered' by others where needed and if someone decides to go to Africa on a 3 week safari there will be some work needed to be shared out amongst other staff. But as long as everyone is taking ownership of the same amount of responsibility, and doing that correctly the system will work.
It takes a bit more thinking and planning to work out a timeframe over what targets are appropriate, but as long as everyone's comparable targets are the same, and they are all meeting them then the one who takes the most holiday and still meets all their targets to the same high standard is simply a more efficient worker.
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| 25th Sep 2014 9:48 am |
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Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
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Great advertising for Virgin, makes them look really caring employers DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
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| 25th Sep 2014 10:16 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50971
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Agree Paul ...these people are his "A team" he already knows that they work as though they personally own the business and wouldn't compromise it in any way ...so as for the scheme working it's a fairly safe bet for him.
If we really wanted him to demonstrate how it wouldn't work in other circumstances then we should ask him to apply it across his empire. Nil Point. 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 25th Sep 2014 10:34 am |
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dubbs
Member Since: 18 Apr 2012
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 3626
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It works for highly professional individuals who feel personally accountable for their output.
The more you are extracted from the point-of-sale/revenue/profit the less it works.
The less skilled and less paid you get, the more you are in the "production line" the less it works
This is a generalist of course, there are fantastic people in all areas but those that work to get paid are generally more likely to take advantage.
On the flip side it's also worth making sure an employee take at least one contiguous break, some will stress and/or commit so much they need helping to help themselves!! MY15 DIY Black Pack (Better than factory and half the price!)
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| 25th Sep 2014 11:41 am |
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