Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
Will not start reliably
My Discovery 3 will not start reliably. It is a 2008 TDV6 HSE.
In May & June this year I had to call out the AA twice to help me start the car. On both occasions the AA patrol man said the battery was fine, it was charging ok.
The car was not going to be driven during July so I put my CTEK battery charge on during that time just to maintain the battery. I made sure I filled the fuel tank before parking it up without the EPB on.
The engine will sometimes start first time. At most other times it will start second or third time. I do get some black smoke from the exhaust when the car does eventually start.
If it does not start first time, if I give it some gas it will more often than not start second time. When it does not start all sorts of error messages and pong noises are heard namely HDC fault, park brake fault, special programs off. Also my settings such as auto lock doors and speed limit exceeded are reset and the trip is reset to zero. When I stop and then restart the car these settings go back to my preferred settings. Sometimes the clock in the car will go to 00:00 after a number of failed starts.
When it does start the car drives fine and I have been getting some of the best fuel consumption figures (probably since the trip is getting reset).
I have done a lot of motorway journeys in excess of 100 miles, which should give enough time to recharge the battery. However, when I get in the car to start it on my way home at the end of the same day similar starting issues are happening.
I tried to start it yesterday but it would not start. I think I might have drained the battery too much during my attempts. So I took all the child seats out and had to take 2 cars instead of one 7 seat one to complete my journey.
The hit and miss nature of this issue is now causing problems. Should I replace the battery anyway at around £100 or book it into the dealer to have a diagnostic check?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Taj
16th Sep 2012 8:44 am
NickJ
Member Since: 11 Oct 2010
Location: there's no f in point
Posts: 2137
Re: Will not start reliably
tajisan wrote:
I have done a lot of motorway journeys in excess of 100 miles, which should give enough time to recharge the battery
How old is the battery? After long journeys the next day I can still get a special programs off message which I put down to my battery not being charged fully, and it's not even two years old.
16th Sep 2012 8:48 am
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20786
A new battery on a 4yr old car, coming into winter would never be a bad thing.
However, a new battery will be no use, if the alternator cannot keep it fully charged. A good alternator should be putting out over 15v at 2000rpm, and 14.5v + with all electrical loads switched on.My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
I am assuming it is most likely the original battery from 2008. I bought the car used from LR dealer in March 2010.
I have been into the hidden menu on the touchscreen and in the vehicle signals section it shows the battery voltage.
When driving around it shows 13.5v. When I start the car it often shows anything from 9.5v to 11.5v - the car may or may not start whether the voltage is 9.5 or 11.5v.
16th Sep 2012 9:02 am
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20786
11.5v is touch and go for a TDV6 as to whether it will start or not.
The starter motor draws a LOT of current during cranking, and will suck whatever life is in the battery to try and start...
I would spend the money on diagnostics, and have the battery tested properly, and also the charging system.
Have you checked to see if there are any site sponsors close to you, instead of going to a dealer?
Bodsy appears to be the closest to you, maybe worth dropping him a PM, and see if he can sort you outMy D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Tajisan,
Sorry to hear your woes but it all sounds fixable and I would be very surprised if the faults were not linked to battery and/or alternator. To aid diagnostics it would help to know how you got your volt readings. All the values you state end in .5v so I am suspicious that these only come from the D3 diagnostics screens and have not been checked against a proper voltmeter; the 'diagnostic' screens are not accurate enough as they only display in 0.5v increments and together with other errors can be best part of a volt out.
If you repeat the tests in my post below with a digital volt meter (a cheap one will do) we can see if the fault is the alternator killing the battery or the battery alone:
Robbie wrote:
Good battery is around 12.5v and the D3 alternator peaks at around 15.8v (which is higher than most). You should always see over 12.7v when the alternator is running but it seems to settle around 13v+. Alternator goes to full output not long after start (a few seconds) and pushes out almost full power at idle.
Reasonably new battery in rude health:
About 10 seconds after starting:
About 40 seconds after starting:
Apologies for the poor photo but about 60 seconds after starting as shown on a cheap 12v cigar socket voltmeter rather than a Fluke:
The above are pretty typical for a D3 with a good battery and good alternator. Car had not been driven for a day and temp is about 9 deg C, although it was a little colder overnight. The voltage is regulated by the cars engine management system according to load, charging rate and temperature.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
I have had to disconnect the battery completely from the car to charge it. For some reason my CTEK charger would not charge the battery with it connected to the car.
I had wound down the drivers window so i could push the car away from the garage door to get in, but could not get the drivers window to come back up. I left the battery to charge for a couple of hours, reconnected it and closed the window (it had just started to rain 15 minutes earlier - black bags did a good job of keeping the rain out).
I checked the voltage on the battery and it was 12.65v before I reconnected it.
I will leave it on charge but disconnected from the car and then perform Robbie's suggestion and post the results.
Just a couple of things from my very limited experience :-
I connect my CTEK to the car via the Towing socket quite happily, no need to disconnect the battery. the fact that you have to, does indicate some fault in the car.
Is you CTEK a "charger" or "Conditioner". A conditioner will take a very long time to charge up a discharged battery.
Agree that you need to get the volts read properly first
RikDiscovery 4 HSE SDV6 Baltic Blue
Discovery 3 S TDV6 Zambezi Silver - Now gone........
Leicestershire & Rutland 4x4 Response
18th Sep 2012 4:31 pm
tajisan
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
It is a CTEK Multi XS 3600 battery charger.
I have not been able to get onto the forum today, in particular this thread.
Now that the thread appears to be fixed I will do the voltage tests suggested by Robbie tomorrow. The battery has been on charge since Sunday evening so by tomorrow should be fully charged. It was showing over 13v yesterday afternoon.
18th Sep 2012 8:45 pm
tajisan
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
I had left the battery on charge for a number of days now, so decided to reconnect it to the car.
Whilst the battery was disconnected I performed a hard reset by shorting the positive and negative cables in the car.
Before the battery was connected to the car the voltage on the battery was showing as 12.69v on my meter.
After connecting the positive and negative terminal to the car the voltage was showing as 12.02v.
I attempted to start the car but my discovery still would not start. The engine tries to fire up but does not actually turn. I can hear what sounds like a relay noise from around the gear selector.
In my starting attempts I let the glow plug go out a few times and then tried starting but still no joy.
My numerous starting attempts had brought the voltage down on the battery to below 9v. The dash board warning lights go out immediately after they come on and I get nothing now. I again slightly lowered the drivers windows and even that does not close now.
I have now put the CTEK charger back on the battery in situ. It appears to be charging this time. The voltage across the battery terminals is going up and is 10.2v at present.
I thought about checking the fuses in the box next to battery but there appears to be like a security white tape seal on one edge.
Any advice would be greatly received.
Taj
19th Sep 2012 2:45 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20786
How long were you trying to start it for?
Sounds like your battery has had it
Also, it would be worth checking the alternator does not have a dead short, and is discharging the battery that way...My D3 Build Thread
Sounds like the battery is goosed, but you also need to investigate the alternator as one probably caused the other.
Can you jump start it with another vehicle, just to get the engine running, disconnect 2nd vehicle and then check the voltage again ? THis may confirm if the alternator is goosed as DM mentions.
RikDiscovery 4 HSE SDV6 Baltic Blue
Discovery 3 S TDV6 Zambezi Silver - Now gone........
Leicestershire & Rutland 4x4 Response
19th Sep 2012 4:59 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Yep, your battery is dead and as the guys have said we now need to know why. Dropping from a seemingly health voltage so quickly when connected to the car is not a good sign.
I don't suppose you checked the current draw when you connected the battery?
Oh and how long did you wait after charging before checking the voltage (thinking surface charge only here)?Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
The car is parked right up to the garage door at the front and walls either side - not going to get another car anywhere nearby.
I could wait until the weekend and get the cavalry in to push the car onto the road. I have had an operation on my heart so best not do it myself.
My brother is in Cornwall, so I have ordered a battery through Nick @ Yeovil Land Rover anyway. Great price and my brother can pick up on way back to Wolverhampton. Changing the battery before winter seemed like a good idea anyway.
When I turn the key the dash lights come on and immediately go out leaving a flashing red ((P)). I am not any kind of expert on cars so thanks for all the advice so far.
20th Sep 2012 4:21 pm
tajisan
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 17
Fitted battery last night. It was a Jaguar Land Rover branded AGM battery made by Exide. Surprisingly the rating was 830 rather than the 900 of the original battery. Voltage on new battery was 12.65v.
Car started first time. No error messages or bongs.
Could not do any further voltage tests since raining too much.
Drove to work today and all seems fine.
Will update post when the weather gets a bit better with voltages etc.
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