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Catastrophic failures of TDV6 engines in South Africa
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BrettKaz
 


Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209

Australia 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

Just got back from checking the pulled down engine - bore is also $%&*
  
Post #179636027th Mar 2017 3:54 am
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hgbosch
 


Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

South Africa 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Maya GoldDiscovery 3
Re: Cylinder 6 Piston Melt


BrettKaz wrote:
George

I had a cylinder 6 Piston melt on my 07 Disco 3. Read thru this thread as thoroughly has my limited technical skills could afford and to me it seemed that you had an answer to the big end problems but not for the melting of the cylinder 6 piston... other than carbon build up.

My Disco 'blew-up' going up a hill towing a 3 tonne caravan and had been remapped and this happened about 6k after replacing timing belts without the use of a crank locking pin and mis-timing my engine.

My mechanic is telling me to buy a secondhand engine ... I think because other than a leaky injector ( possibly care of re-mapping) he is not sure what the root cause may have been.

So my questions are:
1. What did you conclude the cause of this was? Why Cylinder 6?
2. Am I good to go if I:
a. Replace the piston and clean off carbon from the top end of the motor (heads, valves, piston crowns)
b. Replace injector - cylinder 6 (tolerance check others)
c. Reset cam timing
d. Restore factory engine map/or back off the exisiting one (I am still up in the air on this)
e. Blank EGR's

I really don't want to buy a secondhand engine - I have treated mine well in terms of maintenance intervals and it has spent most of it's life pooddling around central London. I also try to drive it on the torque curve and not just 'flatten' the throttle up hills... although towing a heavy van excessive throttle is always going to occur naturally.

Thanks in advance, Brett


Hi Brett

i sent you a pm. Don't even bother to try to repair that engine. Get a low mileage 2nd hand engine, replace the oil pump with the latest version and fit to the vehicle. It must have the re-enforced supports for the cam tensioner mounting. See attached pic above the text.



Good luck
 EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT Shocked

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff 
 
Post #179669028th Mar 2017 5:56 am
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dgardel
 


Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025

Italy 2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XXV LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

hgbosch wrote:
DG wrote:
Interesting hgbosch ....do you have any idea at what point or under what conditions the shells start to rotate. The other question I always have with these failures is what is the failure rate ? ....i.e. given that there are hundreds of thousands of D3's.


Hi DG

was with TGWInduna at the motor engineers today taking pictures of two stripped TDV6 motors. The first one is the one with the melted piston (petrol in diesel turned out to be the cause after a diesel analysis).

The second one came into the workshop with a knocking sound. Was stripped just in time.

On both engines there were signs of the bearings starting to turn. The second engine with the knock, one of the big end bearing shells had been ground down wafer thin with a marked narrowing of bearing width in the middle of the shell due to excessive turning of the bearing shells.

There were also decisive chafing marks on the conrod and CR-bearing caps.

We will post pics as soon as they have been sent to me.

I wonder how LR are going to approach this one.

Currently looking for a way to save these engines.

To this end we urgently need data of these engines, torque settings, piston to sleeve tolerance etc. Any one who has got access, please email me or send pm.

There are at the moment some 30 TDV6 engines here in SA, that can be saved by machining various parts, fitting proper big end bearings (with tabs) and not that gemors that is currently in those engines.


May be it's late, but.....

http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/use...Rev2_0.pdf



The remain rebuild data is on LR workshop manual

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnHBx4Wc2MJLgcwG_hzEV3QO9QyoYQ


And more docs here

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AnHBx4Wc2MJLgdR9d9La-5tuIHmSkw
 Discovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License

 
 
Post #182045329th May 2017 10:35 pm
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hgbosch
 


Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

South Africa 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Maya GoldDiscovery 3

Thank you very much DG

most appreciated.

I will pass on to the local indies.

kind regards


George
 EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT Shocked

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff 
 
Post #182062430th May 2017 12:46 pm
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BrettKaz
 


Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209

Australia 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

George

I feel a bit jinxed by this thread. My first engine (+80k miles) suffered a melted piston Big Cry . My new engine (+40k alleged miles) had a bit of rattle so after +50 miles, among other things, I did an engine flush and at the same time I pulled the sump to make 100% sure I had seated the pick-up properly. I found about 15-20 pieces of bearing shell in the sump (which was spotless when fitted) Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad .... my old engine had about the same amount.

I assume the correct number is zero but at what point would you start to get worried? Is it normal to have a few bits? BTW I am going to do another flush ... I don't think the new engine was particularly well maintained since it is a little quieter and quicker to eliminate start-up rattle after the first flush.

Beware if you tell me this engine is also Censored then I am going to convert it to a petrol but the petrol won't be going into the tank!

Thanks in advance Bow down . Brett
  
Post #182091731st May 2017 7:41 am
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dgardel
 


Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025

Italy 2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XXV LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

BrettKaz wrote:


George

I feel a bit jinxed by this thread. My first engine (+80k miles) suffered a melted piston. My new engine (+40k alleged miles) had a bit of rattle so after +50 miles, among other things, I did an engine flush and at the same time I pulled the sump to make 100% sure I had seated the pick-up properly. I found about 15-20 pieces of bearing shell in the sump (which was spotless when fitted) Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad .... my old engine had about the same amount.

I assume the correct number is zero but at what point would you start to get worried? Is it normal to have a few bits? BTW I am going to do another flush ... I don't think the new engine was particularly well maintained since it is a little quieter and quicker to eliminate start-up rattle after the first flush.

Beware if you tell me this engine is also Censored then I am going to convert it to a petrol but the petrol won't be going into the tank!

Thanks in advance Bow down . Brett



Brett, NOW!!

Sorry mate, I do not want to do terrorism, but with the presence of particles that probably come from the bearings, I would not feel me "comfortable".

Try to remove the oil filter and open (cut) it, check if the particles are trapped inside.....

I do this at every oil change, so I'm sure....

Click image to enlarge


Click image to enlarge


Click image to enlarge
 Discovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License

 


Last edited by dgardel on 31st May 2017 8:53 am. Edited 1 time in total 
Post #182092931st May 2017 8:52 am
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hgbosch
 


Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

South Africa 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Maya GoldDiscovery 3

Hi Brett

did you fit a new oil pump, before you installed the engine. That pump on 7A to 9A models is the achilles heel of the TDV6 2.7 engines falling under the above range.

Hope you come right!


George
 EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT Shocked

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff 
 
Post #182093031st May 2017 8:52 am
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BrettKaz
 


Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209

Australia 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

DG,

I was after the answer 'sugar coated' rather than 'between the eyes'. Seriously though much appreciated. The pieces were flakes which I would expect from shells rather than grinds which would be from bearings. (Although I have no experience with either ... So just guessing). Didn't see anything in the filter although I didn't cut it open.

George,

The engine was 2014 Ford so no tensioner mount issues. I didn't swap it over because usually the less I touch the better result I get. I regret it now ... Along with the inter cooler which I fitted to the new radiator and I think is now toast.

I will do another flush and inspect the sump and tear apart the filter in the next couple of days.

Thanks lads,
  
Post #182096631st May 2017 11:45 am
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hgbosch
 


Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

South Africa 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Maya GoldDiscovery 3

Hi Brett

yes the 2014 engine has got the correct oil pump. Please post some close up pics of the particles you found.
 EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT Shocked

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff 
 
Post #182097531st May 2017 12:43 pm
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dgardel
 


Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025

Italy 2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XXV LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

HG, are there differences between MY2012 and MY2014 oil pumps?

I mean major changes for the lubricating operation (P/N changes LR013487 -> LR065125 - >LR076782).

My Info was the the D4 (all) has the corrected pump, or am I wrong?
 Discovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License

 
 
Post #182099531st May 2017 1:36 pm
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hgbosch
 


Member Since: 25 Oct 2010
Location: Pretoria and Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 188

South Africa 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Maya GoldDiscovery 3

Hi DG

from LR013487 which was a running change on the D3 assembly line from VIN 9A510122 onwards there have subsequently been two more number changes, but all pumps from LR013487 onwards are ok.

That is why there are nowadays no more run bearing issues since the introduction of the D4's, bar where a turbo failure took place and the rig was driven until there was no more oil left in the sump.

I trust that this answers your question.
 EX AFRICA SEMPER ALIQUID NOVI
SEMPER IN FAECIBUS SUMUS SOLE, PROFUNDUM VARIAT Shocked

with kind regards

George Bosch
2005 Disco3 TDV6 S
2003 Range Rover Td6
1998 Disco1 ES 300Tdi (sold)
And some more serious stuff 
 
Post #182100631st May 2017 2:16 pm
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dgardel
 


Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: Greater Venice
Posts: 2025

Italy 2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 XXV LE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 4

Thumbs Up

Thank you George!
 Discovery 5 tdv6 HSE Corris Gray Outback Engineering Limited Edition

IID Pro MV License

 
 
Post #182101631st May 2017 2:41 pm
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BrettKaz
 


Member Since: 11 Nov 2013
Location: Canberra
Posts: 209

Australia 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway GreyDiscovery 3

Did a flush and pulled the sump and oil filter.

The oil filter had nothing in it so threw it in the bin. Then came back and looked at DG's pictures and went and retrieved it. There are some very small flecks that catch the light. Hard to say how many ... the car has plus 10 miles since last flush.

Then I pulled the sump and Censored me. I had expected it to be clean but had about 10-15 decent sized flakes in it about the same size maybe a bit smaller than before. See attached bottom row was today top row was a few days back. Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad

The engine was really badly maintained - when I did the first flush - what came out was very black - between your fingers it didn't feel like oil - this time it was black but felt like oil.

When I first turned over the engine it took about 5 minutes for the oil to get to the top and stop a bit of the rattle. I was like they had drained the oil and left the gloop there to harden. That might be a bolt on business for you George - develop a method of getting warm oil w/ flush up through the engine without cranking it. The damage may have already been done in my case.

Anyway I look like a plonker for going for a 2nd hand engine. Does anybody know the parts list (is it just bearings and shells?) to rectify this and suppliers please.

I have a warranty current on the engine - I just wonder if any wrecker on the planet has paid a dime on a warranty ... I'm gunna find out. That's the least of my problems - I have taken a year off work to take the kids around Australia and after a 3 month lay over to sort the replacement engine - I told the kids we would be leaving Sunday to restart the trip. Censored The not the worst - guess where we have been staying ... the outlaws! Thumbs Up

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Post #18216682nd Jun 2017 6:43 am
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hugeviking
 


Member Since: 08 Jun 2010
Location: cotswolds
Posts: 1481

United Kingdom 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Manual Cairns BlueDiscovery 3

Hi hgbosch
Do you think the early oil pump was responsible for D3 spun bearings, ie do you think the later pump gives higher pressure.
I know about the later pump has a stronger mount for the tensioner. Thumbs Up

Andi.
  
Post #18219192nd Jun 2017 7:39 pm
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