You need to get them to admit that the fixing was a manufacturing fault
and what factual engineering evidence do you have to claim it is a manufacturing fault and not end user misuse or from a bolt that may have worked its way loose.
MELISCAT wrote:
Yes I kow, I have been off roading with my rack and tent for 18 months and have covered over 20,000 miles off-road with it
The answer to the manual is that the information, like a lot of the information provided by Landrover in either electronic or published form is either incorrect, misleading or as they admitted in their written reply not there. I don't expect to have to check an online manual when a manufacturer provides me with a hard copy version.
No manufacturer is going to admit on 1 case that there is a fault in manufacture,all I have asked is have they changed the manufacturing process? that is why I and several other members have been trying to get more people to check and report on how their roof rails are fixed, do they have load spreader plates or not. As to you suggesting end user misuse I take offence, the fixings for the roof rails have been checked regularly, as have those of the rack and roof tent.Mike
5th Sep 2010 5:05 pm
Trackman
Member Since: 16 Apr 2010
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 430
FWIW just been reading my manual and the roof load is stated under the Towing section - Maximum towing/load limits which is on page 200. My book is for a 2007 model and makes no comment about weight changes for off road.
Ian.
5th Sep 2010 6:00 pm
caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
Baben wrote:
A couple of us have asked the question, which has been ignored - how can a point load be created on the rail fixing bolt, unless the bolt is loose AND a load is applied directly to the bolt head?
Even if the fixing bolt is loose and there is a load on the rails, how can it possibly be forced downwards? The rail fixing bolts simpy hold the roof rails against the roof. They do not carry the load, which is spread along the length of the rail
You will get loading in both directions the load will also try to pull the nut through the roof. Also there will be some sideways loading and when tightened will crush the steel as well. There are a lot of different loads that will occure which is why the 'normal' fixing spread those forces rather than concentrating them at the small area of the nut fixing that MELISCAT has.
HAS ANYONE GOT THE SAME FIXING AS MELISCAT?“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
FWIW just been reading my manual and the roof load is stated under the Towing section - Maximum towing/load limits which is on page 200. My book is for a 2007 model and makes no comment about weight changes for off road.
Ian.
Thanks Trackman, who would have thought to look under the Towing section, page 199 in my book and yes 75kg is stated there. I must remember next time to tow all items from the roof rack and not the tow bar It just goes to show how many different manuals are out there and that Land Rover has no idea were to put the relevant technical information, I shall be pestering them again about the poor layout of the technical information for their vehicles.
I must admit I have just about had enough of this whole affair. I shall be chatting with one of the writers from one of the Land Rover magazines next weekend over the whole sordid issue.Mike
5th Sep 2010 10:25 pm
caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
MELISCAT wrote:
I must admit I have just about had enough of this whole affair. I shall be chatting with one of the writers from one of the Land Rover magazines next weekend over the whole sordid issue.
Hope they stick it to them. “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
6th Sep 2010 12:27 am
catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
Re: Landrovers Response
caverD3 wrote:
Because no one has said they have the same fixing as MELISCAT
so a few responses from the tens upon tens of thousands of owners does not mean that this situation is unique and no need for the bold your statement doesnt carry any more weight because of it and it was a reasonable and legitimate question to you.
caverD3 wrote:
Never said I had any proof I just said I think it is what he will need to proove.
my sincere apologies, I was misled by your earlier comments below
caverD3 wrote:
They are trying to get out of it and have not even checked the fitting.
caverD3 wrote:
I wonder if it is a wider production issue involving more vehicles.
caverD3 wrote:
Difficulty is getting LR to admit a build failure.
caverD3 wrote:
You need to get them to admit that the fixing was a manufacturing fault
Baben wrote:
A couple of us have asked the question, which has been ignored - how can a point load be created on the rail fixing bolt, unless the bolt is loose AND a load is applied directly to the bolt head? Even if the fixing bolt is loose and there is a load on the rails, how can it possibly be forced downwards?
not claiming to be an expert or even a lawyer with legal terms for that matter but we get similar fractures on electrical panels when the bolts come loose and its not downward pressure but the side to side movement (vibrations - just a general work term) that occurs that causes the issue. with a loose bolt and offroading with a roof tent I could imagine there would be side movement on the roof rails from a shifting load on the crossbars/fixing points eventually causing the fracture over time. My personal opinion here is that this can happen on any vehicle should a combination of events happen. I dont know if I have the nuts or plate and wont be checking as it is irrelevant.
MELISCAT wrote:
I don't expect to have to check an online manual when a manufacturer provides me with a hard copy version.
of which you havent bothered reading either.
MELISCAT wrote:
page 199 in my book and yes 75kg is stated there.
until now
may I suggest RTFM and will you be sending an apology to LR because you did have the info all along.
Im surprised some people here continue to own their LR with some of the hate towards the manufacturer when quite often some research(or reading) and common sense resolves alot of issues.
off to the bush now for a week, enjoy yourselves
9th Sep 2010 2:32 pm
Hijack
Member Since: 19 Jul 2006
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 381
Re: Landrovers Response
catweasel wrote:
MELISCAT wrote:
page 199 in my book and yes 75kg is stated there.
until now
may I suggest RTFM and will you be sending an apology to LR because you did have the info all along.
Im surprised some people here continue to own their LR with some of the hate towards the manufacturer when quite often some research(or reading) and common sense resolves alot of issues.
off to the bush now for a week, enjoy yourselves
Hmmm, but there is nowhere in LR publications mentioned 50kg limit during offroading....
To me it looks like their get out clause without properly informing owners.
Anyway, 75kg limit disqualifies D3 as platform for roof tents - something that I have contemplated to do, but now have some serious reservations... D3 XS Manual - gone
Very neat editing of my posting, you forgot to include the part were it says that the roof loading value is UNDER TOWING - do you tow using your roof- that must be fun!
I don't know about you but I expect the weight loadings for the vehicle to be found under the LOADING values for the vehicle.Mike
9th Sep 2010 8:38 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
Re: Landrovers Response
Hijack wrote:
Anyway, 75kg limit disqualifies D3 as platform for roof tents - something that I have contemplated to do, but now have some serious reservations...
The D3 isn't alone though
Quote:
Toyota Landcruiser - Roof maximum load (kg / lb) 80 / 176.4
TBH I feel that one incident, the cause of which is far from clear, is in danger of overshadowing the thousands who exceed the specs when static without any issues at all.
Meliscat is it an option for you to take specialist advice on the cause of this ?21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
However I shall be writing to Land Rover to point out that once again their literature is poorly assembled and suggest that they move the roof loading values from the vehicles towing section to the Load carrying section of the published owners manual.
As to the point of "hate towards the manufacture" I don't hate them, this is my 3rd Land Rover and I am just about to buy my 4th. They are great vehicles, it is just that Land Rover as a company can be so frustrating to deal with because of inconsistent information that they supply to the owners.Mike
Anyway, 75kg limit disqualifies D3 as platform for roof tents - something that I have contemplated to do, but now have some serious reservations...
The D3 isn't alone though
Quote:
Toyota Landcruiser - Roof maximum load (kg / lb) 80 / 176.4
TBH I feel that one incident, the cause of which is far from clear, is in danger of overshadowing the thousands who exceed the specs when static without any issues at all.
Meliscat is it an option for you to take specialist advice on the cause of this ?
If you are going to use the D3 off-road then your limit is down to 50kg according to Land Rover.
I shall not be perusing any legal action against the manufacturer as I do not have the time, money or inclination to do so. All I wanted was to ask the question if people had experienced any problems with the roof rail fixings.
An issue that no one has raised though is with all the D3's out there with loads exceeding 75kg...what is the insurance position when exceeding the manufacturers recommended load values? any one fancy making a comment on this can of worms?Mike
9th Sep 2010 8:55 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50978
But you are very unlikely to have an accident that can be attributed to roof loading while static If you are mobile and have an accident that can be directly related to overloading the roof then yes you would have an insurance issue.21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
9th Sep 2010 9:03 pm
caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
Re: Landrovers Response
Welcome back CW.
catweasel wrote:
caverD3 wrote:
Because no one has said they have the same fixing as MELISCAT
so a few responses from the tens upon tens of thousands of owners does not mean that this situation is unique and no need for the bold your statement doesnt carry any more weight because of it and it was a reasonable and legitimate question to you.
caverD3 wrote:
Never said I had any proof I just said I think it is what he will need to proove.
my sincere apologies, I was misled by your earlier comments below.
Nowhere have I claimed to have proof in any of the examples you gave. It is either a question or an opinion (of which there are many, including yours) I just either see it differently or disagree.
catweasel wrote:
Baben wrote:
A couple of us have asked the question, which has been ignored - how can a point load be created on the rail fixing bolt, unless the bolt is loose AND a load is applied directly to the bolt head? Even if the fixing bolt is loose and there is a load on the rails, how can it possibly be forced downwards?
not claiming to be an expert or even a lawyer with legal terms for that matter but we get similar fractures on electrical panels when the bolts come loose and its not downward pressure but the side to side movement (vibrations - just a general work term) that occurs that causes the issue. with a loose bolt and offroading with a roof tent I could imagine there would be side movement on the roof rails from a shifting load on the crossbars/fixing points eventually causing the fracture over time. My personal opinion here is that this can happen on any vehicle should a combination of events happen. I dont know if I have the nuts or plate and wont be checking as it is irrelevant..
Why would you think the type of fixing is irrelevent. We know there is another type of fixing in other vehicles which has a larger plate attached to the nut. There is a a reason for that fixing, it is to prevent what is known as punching shear, if you have a look at the top of concrete columns in a car park you will see a widening of the column at the top where it meets the slab above. This prevents the column 'punching' through the slab and the slab dropping.
Same principal with steel. The fix on MELISCATs D3 involved welding plates to stop this happening again. The type of fixing is very relevent to the issue. If other vehicles have the same fixing have roof racks then the fixing he has is sufficient for the job if not he has grounds for a claim. It is interesting that this is the only instance we know of this happening, with many on here (and on AULRO) loading their roof rails above LR limits and he has what appears to be a different fixing.
catweasel wrote:
[may I suggest RTFM and will you be sending an apology to LR because you did have the info all along.
Im surprised some people here continue to own their LR with some of the hate towards the manufacturer when quite often some research(or reading) and common sense resolves alot of issues.
Don't hate LR at all, nor do I think, does MELISCAT. Any manufacturer can make a mistake, it is just how they deal with it that makes the difference. I am just trying to help.“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
9th Sep 2010 11:15 pm
DIEGUS
Member Since: 11 Nov 2008
Location: Arese (MI)
Posts: 1416
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
It just goes to show how many different manuals are out there and that Land Rover has no idea were to put the relevant technical information, I shall be pestering them again about the poor layout of the technical information for their vehicles.
