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eran48
Member Since: 10 Dec 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 165
  
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| Wheel alignment changes - Normal vs Off road height |
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G'day everybody.
About a month ago, I purchased a set of MTR's from this tyre place in Castle Hill. I asked them if they do alignments for Disco3's and they started crowing about this brand new hyper-expensive all singing, all dancing alignment system they had just installed.
After reading about all the factory alignment problems - I decided to have my vehicle (and this new alignment system  ) checked out.
I gave them very specific instructions:
1) After driving on to the alignment ramp, wait for a short while for the self-levelling system to sort itself out.
2) Open driver's door
3) Turn off engine and leave driver's door open
4) Do alignment.
The results were that even though the alignments were not spot on, they were within tolerance. I even had a graphical printout showing individual alignment results as well as the overall 'composite' alignment of all 4 wheels. Not bad.
 Then they guy said something very interesting. Because they had never done a Disco3 before, they decided to raise it to the off-road height and did another alignment check. He said that the alignments went way off - unacceptably so.
So there you go folks. This is the reason why Land Rover limits the off-road settings to only 40 km/h - wheel alignment issues!
It is not safe driving a badly aligned vehicle at high speeds - especially a heavily laden one. 
I guess the alignment issues are less critical in slow off-road driving - especially so when the tyre pressures are down.
In reference to the other very active thread on shortening the height sensor rods, my advice is to get a fresh alignment done after putting the shorter rods in. After the trip, re-install the normal rods and have another alignment done.
It costs about $60 per alignment. If you only do one or two 'big' trips a year, then the extra cost is not so bad - its certainly a lot cheaper than a high-speed accident!
It really doesn't matter what you use to change the ride height - shortened sensor rods or mega-expensive german systems - you will STILL have the same alignment issues. It does not look like something that can be fixed by software changes or system tweaks. We are looking at fundamental design limitations here.
Until Land Rover comes out with a suspension that can change height WIHOUT changing its component's geometry/alignment, I think the above is the only safe way to increase the suspension height - ie get a fresh alignment done every time you change the ride height of the vehicle.
Drive safely.
Cheers.
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 9th Mar 2008 11:45 pm |
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Desert Traveller
Member Since: 06 Aug 2006
Location: The Gabba - QLD
Posts: 420
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Was the vehicle put into alignment mode before the alignment? 06 TDV6 SE with many LR and after-market extras. Used only on weekends and trips out west.
Audi TT Roadster (Daily and around town drive)
VW Eos TDI For Sale
Previously 01 TD5 and 94 TDI
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| 10th Mar 2008 12:02 am |
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catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
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when they raised it did they drive it off the ramp and back on to let everything settle. when I park mine and put it in access height the wheels look odd but if I drive in in access height the wheels look fine.
never done a D3 and a flash new system, wouldn't treat the info as gospel.
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| 10th Mar 2008 2:10 am |
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eran48
Member Since: 10 Dec 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 165
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Hello Desert Traveller and catweasel,
No, the vehicle was not put in alignment mode - the way I see it, so long as the car is in the normal driving height when the alignment is done, all should be OK. The results do support this - the front passenger wheel was the worst off at 0.023 degrees but the overall alignment was only out by 0.01 degrees (ie the errors in the all wheels cancelled each other out).
They said this was within tolerance - I can only take their word for it. Does anybody disagree and think the error is too big? My vehicle is going in next week to have the sagging driver's seat fixed/replaced so I can get LR to fix the alignment at the same time. (I told the shop to only check the alignment and not to actually change anything on the car)
I don't think they drove it off the alignment ramp after raising it. They had completed the normal height alignment check and because all the measuring equipment was already mounted to the car, decided to just raise the vehicle and take another reading. They did not take a third reading at access height.
What I will do when I next send the car in for routine alignment is to get separate printouts for both normal and off-road height. It will be interesting to see how much the alignment changes and in which way..
I'll put the results in this forum for those curious about it - this won't be for another 6 months though...
I do take your point about their never having done a D3 and their new system. It will be interesting to have somebody else do this at a different place and see if the results are the same.
Cheers
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| 10th Mar 2008 2:50 am |
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caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
 
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I have previously pointed out that alignment would be an issue in off road height howver; I would see the alignment problem being one of wear and handling on black top. Where it is in off road height it will be on dirt where wear will not be an issue and the uneven surface will be such that alignment is not a great issue.
Some have driven with shortened rods and reported no great handling problems. The problem is it is a PITA to change the rods every time you return to the black top let alone when you have a stetch if dirt with no ruts. If it could be changed at will the alignment issue would be minimised.
I see no reson why LR couldn't allow >40kph in low range. “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
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| 10th Mar 2008 3:07 am |
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disco4x4au
Member Since: 19 Jan 2006
Location: Perth
Posts: 409
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The alignment at off-road height will definitely be out if the car remained static during the height change. It has to be driven at least a short distance for the wheels to settle. Then try to measure the alignment. Had this done on mine (after LR had reset the alignment) up at a tyre dealers and it wasn't out by much - can't remember the figures, but I've got a printout somewhere.
Cheers,
Gordon ex - 2006 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, with lots of stuff - R.I.P.
ex - 2009 D3 TDV6 SE, silver, had lots of stuff too!
Now - 2010 RRS 3.0 TDV6, rimini red, 18" rims + Cooper LTZ, rear eLocker, Spider tuning box, GOE protection plates and rock sliders, GOE 3way shortened rods.
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| 11th Mar 2008 12:24 am |
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eran48
Member Since: 10 Dec 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 165
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Thanks for your feedback disco4x4au,
I am a complete tyro when it comes to suspensions. I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying 
If I raise the suspension, the suspension alignment will continue to change and not 'settle' until after I have driven the car a short distance?
But aren't the wheels solidly bolted to the hubs and therefore to the suspension arms and so on to the whole suspension system? If yes, then wouldn't any suspension geometry changes immediately 'flow' to the wheels? The alignment equipment is attached to the wheels and not the tyres and should reflect the alignment changes immediately?
Or does changing the height pre-load the various suspension bushes and the short drive allows all the suspension components to 'relax' to the new alignment?
I think I am going to go have a beer or four now. This is getting too complicated for me 
Cheers
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| 11th Mar 2008 6:05 am |
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caverD3
Member Since: 02 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
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eran48 wrote:
Or does changing the height pre-load the various suspension bushes and the short drive allows all the suspension components to 'relax' to the new alignment?
Cheers
and remember it also self levels. “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
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| 11th Mar 2008 6:15 am |
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catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
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picture the vehicle in access height then raise to offroad height where ( I presume ) the track of the vehicle will narrow. since there is 2.7t sitting on the static wheels they will not move in but something has to give which AFAIK will be what caused the excessive error in the wheel alignment which is why I asked if it had been moved off the ramp.
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| 11th Mar 2008 7:07 am |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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eran48 wrote:ie the errors in the all wheels cancelled each other out
Not sure what that means - if one (say rear) wheel has too much toe in and the opposite wheel has too much toe out then the alignment between the two wheels may "cancel out" but the vehicle will crab sideways down the road to some degree Cheers
Simon
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| 11th Mar 2008 11:21 am |
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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
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Next time you get your D3's tyres changed and it goes into Extended Mode, you'll see each wheel is not fully on the floor - ie the top edge of the wheel will be a little further out than the bottom edge. ie they will be sitting more on their outer edge.
An exaggerated example of what raising / lowering the suspension does to the wheels of course. It does settle (wheels move the vertical again if moved) to some extent, but not completely.
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| 11th Mar 2008 11:30 am |
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Drive cosy
Member Since: 10 Nov 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 36
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eran48 wrote:...- the front passenger wheel was the worst off at 0.023 degrees but the overall alignment was only out by 0.01 degrees (ie the errors in the all wheels cancelled each other out).
...
Assuming you're talking about camber here? Now I'm far from an expert on the subject but when I used to muck around with various race cars .1 of a degree tolerance was more than acceptable. I can't imagine physics have changed much in the past two decades, nor that the Disco would be that critical. .023 seems like a tiny margin of error. I am happy to be corrected on this. 
The other issue is the suspension is constantly moving up and down anyway. The wheel alignment would only be "perfect" when stationary or driving on a road so smooth it would not exist in Oz.
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| 12th Mar 2008 5:49 am |
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eran48
Member Since: 10 Dec 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 165
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Thanks Drive Cosy,
Good to know that the tyre shop was right - if 0.1 degrees is good enough for a race car, its good enough for me 
Actually, my D3 drives really well - certainly no crabbing or pulling to one side. Its just that I got a bit paranoid reading about all the problems other people had
After the four beers, I had two profound revelations:
1) As I have neither shortened rods nor german suspension gizmos, I no longer have to worry about alignment changes - for now. 
2) Contemplating beer is less confusing than contemplating suspension geometry. 
Cheers.
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| 12th Mar 2008 10:46 pm |
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DingMark
Member Since: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Perth Oz or Erbil, Iraq
Posts: 388
 
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For the sake of scientific data gathering only , the week after Easter I'll be driving from Ballidonia WA, to Israelite Bay, Cape Arid NP, Cape Le Grande NP, then Esperance. In all about 440kms of either rough dirt tracks or sandy beaches . This will be done with the shortened suspension rods, ie with the suspension effectively set to "Extend" height. I'll have on brand new MTRs and will happily report back on tyre wear, funny handling (ie, does it lead to more rollovers? ) . Jim Dowell - D4 HSE TDi, 12,000 hydraulic winch & hidden winch mount, MTRs, TyreDog, Traxide 2 x aux battery system, fixed air compressor, Dolium roof rack, MitchHitch.
RIP 2005 D3 HSE V8 5 seater gold (stolen and torched)
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| 13th Mar 2008 2:56 am |
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catweasel
Member Since: 05 May 2006
Location: Bundaleer
Posts: 4805
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could you possibly report on how your cv joints go too.
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| 13th Mar 2008 8:46 am |
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