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Potential front diff noise
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3
Potential front diff noise

Hello folks, I wonder if I could dig into the collective wisdom of the forum. The vehicle in question is a 2009 Disco 3 4.0V6 (the Ford engine) with auto box. It's got 185,000 km on the clock. Here in Peru the roads are generally quite poor, so everything wears that bit quicker.

I've had this Disco for the last 3 years more or less, and there has always been a slight 'heatshield rubbing on prop' noise - it's not that, but it's always been there, very faint, and only noticeable at low speed. In the last few days this noise has become more pronounced, and also a 'dry bearing' type noise which is evident from about 60kph and above, which becomes more of a droning noise as speed increases. The rhythm of this noise also coincides with a slight movement/vibration in the steering wheel above 80kph. Both noises are road speed related. The noise is the same accelerating and coasting, in neutral and drive, in a straight line and cornering. I'm having a devil of a job identifying even which end of the Disco it's coming from! My gut says front though, due to the very faint movement I can feel through the steering wheel.

I changed both front driveshafts (GKN) 3 years ago (30,000kms) and the front wheel bearings (with Timken bearings) too, and then the rears 1 year ago (I forget what brand, but OEM quality). Also 2 years ago I changed box and diff fluids, the fluids that came out of the diffs didn't look too bad, no lumps etc.

My first thought is bad front bearings again, but so soon? Also, there's no play in the front bearings (previously it was very obvious!), Rotating the front wheels in the air in neutral, there's a slight scrape from the front left, but it sounds more like pads catching - I'll try and pop the pads out and have a listen again today if I can.

Has anyone got any ideas? Please don't say transfer case.. Sad

Would bad front diff bearings cause a constant noise, or vary with coasting/accelerating etc?

Any (constructive) thoughts gratefully received! Smile

p.s. a 4 post lift is out of the question unfortunately, axle stands are considered a luxury here! Wink
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD 

Last edited by paul_s0 on 2nd Aug 2016 8:05 pm. Edited 1 time in total 
Post #167269025th Jun 2016 1:26 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

Ok, a sort of update. A few days ago when I first got it up in the air, just after a drive, the front left wouldn't rotate without a lot of force. In the time to go and get the tools out (10 mins or so) it had freed off, it would rotate, but some brake binding. I popped off the caliper and pads, and everything was moving freely, and no undue bearing noises either, cleaned up the pad shims/sliders and reassembled, and it was rotating freely. Took it for a short drive and it seemed a little better, however not 100%. Drove it again yesterday (as my D2 is in need of prop UJs) and it’s definitely still the same, and has a slight pull to the right under braking at speed. After that, I popped it up in the air again, and eventually found play in the right rear upright, the top bushing/joint is fubar’d. Thinking back, I hadn’t driven the D3 for a few months until a couple of weeks ago (it’s normally my wife driving it), and this was just after the wheels/tyres were rotated. Checking the tyre that was on the right rear (now on the front), and it has a classic ‘saw tooth’ type wear on the inside edge of the tread. I’ve never experienced this type of wear first hand – can it cause these sorts of noises? To try and eliminate diff problems, I’ve popped it in rock crawl mode and driven around on full lock and there’s no obvious diff binding/skipping symptoms.

Luckily I’ve got the bushing/joint in ‘stock’ having changed the other side last year, so I’m not at the mercy of Peruvian Customs for getting that here.

edit: just to add, the tyres are Dunlop AT3s. Really don't like them and don't recommend them
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #16769234th Jul 2016 3:14 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

Well, I'm going to continue updating this.

Rear knuckle upper joint replaced, and tyres swapped back to original positions. Noise unchanged. Yesterday I was in the back seat whilst the wife was driving, and the noise can be felt as a clear vibration whilst sat in the back. In the 3rd row seats you can't feel it, but in the 2nd row you can. Having checked all 4 tyres, they all have the sawtooth wear pattern on their inner shoulder.

I wonder if there are several different issues.

Some of the noise I reckon must be the tyres, and reading around it looks like various folk in Australia with the Dunlop AT3 have experienced problems and wheel bearing-like noises with them. However I also intend to pop off the rear left disc and check the EPB, rear right was checked obviously when I changed the knuckle upper joint. I'm just convinced there's 'something else' that's not just tyres. If I was in Blighty I'd probably just buy a couple of new bearings to rule them out, but it's cost prohibitive here. I've been checking each corner with an IR thermometer after damn near every drive, and temperaturas are within 10 deg C of each other side to side (checking temp of stub axle, hub, disc and outer pad), which seems to rule out bearing issues for the moment.
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #16870051st Aug 2016 2:29 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

I should add that wheel alignment is ok, in spite of what the tyre wear suggests..
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #16870061st Aug 2016 2:30 pm
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PeterTh
 


Member Since: 06 Sep 2013
Location: Alunda
Posts: 330

Sweden 2011 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 S Auto Orkney GreyDiscovery 4

What about rear prop shaft center bearing?

//Peter
 2011 Discovery 4 3.0 TDV6 S Automatic
1999 Discovery 2 V8 ES Automatic

Earlier
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Automatic
1996 Discovery 300 Tdi ES Automatic
1975 Series 3 2.25 diesel

Nanocom Evolution for D2 V8, D3 and D4

Working kelpies for working the sheep
Dog Sheep Sheep Sheep Sheep Sheep Sheep 
 
Post #16871201st Aug 2016 6:13 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

Thanks Peter. I did wonder about that cheers, but I can't see or feel anything bad with it (not that that's any guarantee! Rolling Eyes ). If the rain stops I'm going to pop off the rear left at lunchtime and check if all is ok with the EPB shoes. Parking on a slope, I've noticed that wheel roll slightly when I release the foot brake with the EPB on, and apparently the wife heard a slight 'twang' from that side a while ago when putting the EPB on, and the vibration seems more pronounced on the rear left. Maybe I'm clutching at straws, we will see Laughing

Edit: EPB shoes/hardware all fine Censored

I'm trying to recall when I changed the front wheel bearings if I used the old torque setting or the revised figure. I've this feeling it may have been 350Nm rather than 230Nm - I wonder if I'm getting a premature failure, although it's odd they're not showing any temp increase, and it appears worse in the 2nd row seats.

ARGH.
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #16874952nd Aug 2016 5:24 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

It's definitely worsening, it's now occasionally felt whilst braking, with an occasional 'winding down' type noise just before stopping after heavy braking.

For the symptoms I reckon it could be:
Any of the wheel bearings premature failure (most likely a front)
Either diff (although I think front more likely)
Centre prop bearing (cheers Peter)
Tyres (I'm sure some noise is the tyres, but it's not the entire problema)

The problema is nothing is cheap (especially with shipping/import duties), so I need to be dead certain, and nothing is showing 100% as the problem. Argh!

My gut is still saying a front wheel bearing, but they're relatively new, and not showing any play or temp increase. I only wonder if all the very large potholes and dusty atmosphere around here have killed them quickly (especially if I over-torqued them to the original spec orginally).
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #16886815th Aug 2016 2:33 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

Well, I still haven't gotten to the bottom of this. All 4 tyres show the saw tooth wear on their inner edges, and are undoubtably causing noise.

I've noticed, however, a temp variation in the front discs on different parts of the same disc, over 30 deg C difference in some cases, which leads me to believe that yet again the discs are warped/distorted. The first set that warped after 15,000kms were Delphi, these are ATE and have done less than 10,000kms. It looks like I will have to shell out for genuine LR discs plus shipping and duties Censored Big Cry
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #171033924th Sep 2016 5:01 pm
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Alphamale
 


Member Since: 28 May 2014
Location: Belfast
Posts: 496

United Kingdom 2014 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Loire BlueDiscovery 4

Get yourself a dial gauge and check the disc for run out (warping). If you do need to replace them you can get other makes that are good so shop around. But when you fit them you aught to check them for warping before you start using them.

Have you checked the brake callipers to be sure they are not jamming causing both the noise you are hearing and over heating of the discs that is leading to the warping. Obviously you are having a problem with something suspension related and it's showing as the wear in the tyres or it could be caused by a binding brake calliper as well.
   
Post #171040024th Sep 2016 6:44 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

Thanks, but sadly I can't get access to a dial guage, and I left mine in the UK when I emigrated. Access both to decent tools and decent parts is difficult.

I agree it seems a bit like a sticky caliper, but all caliper pistons were moving without undue forcé, and all calipers sliders have been changed within the last year and checked to make sure they are free to move.

The tyre issues seem to a common problem with the Thai-produced Dunlop AT3 tyres (they're made in Japan or Thailand), various folk in Australia have reported the same problem with the Thai-made tyres- with no suspensión problems. In my case alignment is ok and the only thing that needs doing is the rear bush in the lower front wishbones, I changed them a year ago, but couldn't get decent ones, these were Censored or similar, and have worsened rapidly, but they aren't the problem (for starters the saw-tooth wear is worse on the rear tyres).

I reckon I'll change tyres first, as they've definitely got problems, then go from there.
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #171125926th Sep 2016 4:33 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

So, carrying on... I've pretty much convinced myself that a good chunk of noise is tyre wear, but tyres are having to wait at least until next month. Without a doubt though, recently there is once again a slight pulsing on braking, particularly as they warm up. On very light applications of the brake you can feel a slight variation in the retardation, on harder applications / higher speeds a definite steering wheel shake.

I've had a caliper seal kit 'in stock' for a while, and last time I changed pads I noticed the RF caliper had one piston boot slightly ripped, so I thought I'd change it in case it was sticking ever-so-slightly. Got the front up in the air, and lo and behold the LF had significantly more resistance to turning. Popped the pads off and resistance was equal between the two sides, and all sliders moving freely. I reassembled the RF, and with a block of wood in the caliper of the LF to limit travel, pressed the brake pedal. One piston moved, the other didn't.. Clamped the moving piston, and the other would move, but with a little more forcé required. So I popped the offending piston out, no rust/scoring, I changed the seals and found some odd whitish gunge in the caliper body of that piston, so cleaned it all out and reassembled. Haven't had chance to take it out at speed yet, but driving it in town a short distance the low speed variation-in-retardation had gone...for now..

I suspect the higher speed steering wheel shake may still be present, but I did confirm that the front lower wishbone rear bushes are in need of changing again, so that will certainly make things worse. Time to play the Peruvian postal service lottery again... Maybe they'll arrive before Easter.
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #173797222nd Nov 2016 5:31 pm
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paul_s0
 


Member Since: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Lima, Peru
Posts: 16

2009 Discovery 3 4.0 V6 Petrol Base 7 Seat Auto Galway GreenDiscovery 3

So, having finally got the tires changed last week, I can confirm the noises were all the tyres, as was the vibration. When one tyre came off it had a lump in the tread, structural deformation/failure, all the tyres showed the saw-tooth wear to the inner tread blocks, to varying degrees. It looks like the Australian fórums were right, the non-Japan produced Dunlop AT3 has fabrication issues. It now has a set of new Maxxis AT771 tyres fitted, and it's all lovely and quiet/smooth, at least until one brakes when the brakes are warm- yet another set of front discs gone.
 2009 4.0 V6 Auto Disco3 LHD  
Post #17578384th Jan 2017 5:21 pm
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zoneout
 


Member Since: 28 Oct 2015
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 39

South Africa 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Chawton WhiteDiscovery 3

Glad you got it sorted. I have had similar experiences with Dunlops, probably the ones which are (or were) produced here in South Africa. Won't ever touch one again (though I am sure they do have good ones)
  
Post #17579344th Jan 2017 6:47 pm
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