DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Signs of Front Diff Failure?

troverman

Member Since: 09 Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 51

Signs of Front Diff Failure?

Our 2005 LR3 V8 is now exhibiting a few symptoms...a moderate vibration in the steering wheel, and a low, mechanical sounding noise around 35mph. However, when you take your foot off the gas at that speed, and just coast, your hear a noticeable, mechanical rotational "winding down" sound. The car has about 90,000 miles on it now. We checked front and rear diff oil; both are very clear, honey colored. Neither was so full that the fluid started running out when the check plug was removed, but they seemed reasonably full.

The only other thing is that the front lower control arms have worn bushes (per the dealer); the suspension clunks as a result and the tires are starting to wear along the shoulders...but its been like this for awhile now, except no noise.

Is it the diff? Current Rovers:
2005 LR3 V8 SE
1992 Range Rover County
1997 Range Rover 4.0SE

Previous Rovers:
2000 Discovery II SD
1995 Range Rover 4.0SE
1992 Range Rover County

Also Current:
2012 Volkswagen GTI 2.0 TSI
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320
1999 Audi A8 4.2 quattro

26th Apr 2011 4:36 pm

Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361

2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Java Black

Checked your wheel bearings? Does it dissapear above 35mph? or just grow with speed? Bodsys Brake Bible

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26th Apr 2011 4:42 pm

troverman

Member Since: 09 Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 51

I have not checked wheel bearings yet...the sound / vibration seems to appear at 30-35mph; it seems slightly less pronounced (but still there) at higher speeds. Most noticeable is the mechanical, rotating-mass, "winding down" as you decelerate. Current Rovers:
2005 LR3 V8 SE
1992 Range Rover County
1997 Range Rover 4.0SE

Previous Rovers:
2000 Discovery II SD
1995 Range Rover 4.0SE
1992 Range Rover County

Also Current:
2012 Volkswagen GTI 2.0 TSI
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320
1999 Audi A8 4.2 quattro

26th Apr 2011 4:51 pm

tlt

Member Since: 02 Sep 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 262

If it turns out to be the diff, PM me if you want parts so you can repair it, rather than replace it.

26th Apr 2011 9:16 pm

character

Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Alaska White

if you've drained the diff and in taking off the drain cap you would find lots of metal fillings attached to the underside of the cap which has a magnet on it.

Otherwise its sounds like the noise I experienced in the weeks leading up to the transfer box going.... then followed by gearbox, then the rear diff......

26th Apr 2011 10:24 pm

tlt

Member Since: 02 Sep 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 262

That must have been an expensive ordeal.

Post on extending your diff, transfer case, etc. here...

If you want to significantly increase the lifespan of the diffs, read on. I can speak with some authority as to the exact reason for the failures, and then the remedy.

I had my LR3/DIII serviced at the Dealer from day one, exactly by the book to manufacturer specs. I had my Differential fluid changed at 75k, at that time, they advised me I needed a new differential rebuilt and quoted some price of 4-5k with labor.

I didn't have it replaced at that time, instead I started investigating if I could get the parts, etc. and what or who else might be able to do it. During this investigation I discovered that the parts were not available at the dealer, or anywhere else. I revisited the dealer on the subject, and discovered they were swapping the unit, not repairing it. No mention, just the usual dumb look, when I asked if there was a core swap, surcharge, etc. I then specifically asked if they could get the bearings and parts, and they claimed it couldn't be done. I asked them to give me the numbers on the bearings they claimed they had, and couldn't cross reference, no reply.

After lengthy investigation I found the bearings, and Ring & Pinion. After getting the parts in, and the additional bits needed, I located an Indy shop with good experience rebuilding differentials. So finally, I got it on the rack, and they pulled off the differential, and drained the fluid, etc. At 90k, just 15k after the fluid change, the fluid was milky and contaminated with water. Now, considering we live and a dry climate, and I have not forded any water (one time since I owned the vehicle) I don't understand how/why the diff oil is contaminated in such a short time. The conclusions that I can come to are that, either there is a design defect causing moisture to accumulate rapidly and not escape, or that the dealer did not actually change the fluids, as they claimed and charged me for. Now, you could argue that the damage was done from 0-75k miles, but that does not explain the water from 75-90k.

Now the lessons that can be taken from this based on talking with the Indy shop, is that water, and the resulting rust did the damage. So, I would have to say, it might be well advised to change your Differential Fluid every other oil change, or say every 14-20k miles. I don't currently have a warranty, but even if you do have a warranty, who wants to deal with getting repairs done, not having your vehicle, and all the other associated hassles. LR should change this fluid under warranty at least every other oil change, but if they will not, I would suggest you do it yourself, or pay the extra money to have it done.

Finally, the proof, I have several detailed photos, the only ones I know of, of the diff torn apart, and showing the rust and damage. The photo attached is the locking mechanism side of the assemble internals. The Indy shop, said in general it is a very slick designed differential, and well made, aside from the water. So, the only preventative before damage, is to change your Diff Oil's at least every other oil change in my opinion. After the damage, the only solution is to rebuild it, and then change every other oil change again. It could be said, that by doing every other, and monitoring the quality of fluids when drained, it might be possible to increase the frequency. And any time you operate in water, and extreme wet conditions, it might be well advised to drain and refill them.

I highly suggest, you consider changing your differential fluid ever other oil change, or third, and always after fording through water. After a lot of research, and contacting Royal Purple, I decided to try it. Most people have reported good success, and quieter operations in general with it. Here are the specs needed for the transfer box, and front and rear differentials.

Transfer Case: Royal Purple Synchromax (part #01512, quart bottle) or Royal Purple Max ATF (part #01320, quart bottle); 1.6 quarts

Differentials: Royal Purple Max Gear 75W-90 (part #01300, quart bottle); 0.65 quart for the front and 1.6 quarts for the rear (locker)

I also replaced about 1pt power steering fluid with Royal Purples.

Now, Royal Purple may not be available in the UK, and I am not trying to start a raging debate on oils. Use what you want, OEM, etc.

If you want to locate parts, PM me with your name, address, phone, e-mail address and I will get you information. Check out my gallery for pictures of new and old ones.. (90k miles)

27th Apr 2011 12:31 am

troverman

Member Since: 09 Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 51

Well, I jacked up the front wheels...driver's side is totally fine...zero play up / down or side-side. Passenger side, well, different story. Quite noticeable wheel bearing play up-down and side-side, with a metallic knocking as the wheel wiggles.

So I'm planning to replace that wheel bearing to start (hub assembly?) and then see if the noise clears.

Tit, I figured you could get the parts somewhere. I did know the dealer diffs were rebuilt (about $900 with our core to buy outright) but I bet installation of the front diff is tough. Good to know you can get them if necessary. I'm really hoping its the wheel bearings. As I said, the fluid in both diffs was light, clear, honey-colored. And it was the same clarity in both front and rear diffs. Perhaps I should drain them and refill anyway. We live in a wet, and snowy, climate; but the LR3 has not ever forded water.

That being said, a Land Rover that needs extensive maintenance after every fording trip is ridiculous. Wasn't the LR3 designed to be a premier off-road vehicle? I have driven my '92 Range Rover in mud and deep water for years, no issues. Just now I am rebuilding the swivel ball hubs for the first time in 19 years.

Back to the LR3, it really has been a great vehicle. Its an '05 with almost 90k miles on it now. And so far, the only thing we have had to do is the air suspension compressor, which i replaced myself. Other than that, tires (just on 3rd set now), spark plugs (@90k), front brakes 3rd set from new (rears are original!), and oil changes. I really didn't expect any wheel bearings or especially differential failure at this age / mileage, though. Current Rovers:
2005 LR3 V8 SE
1992 Range Rover County
1997 Range Rover 4.0SE

Previous Rovers:
2000 Discovery II SD
1995 Range Rover 4.0SE
1992 Range Rover County

Also Current:
2012 Volkswagen GTI 2.0 TSI
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320
1999 Audi A8 4.2 quattro

27th Apr 2011 12:52 pm

Dan_NL

Member Since: 19 Sep 2010
Location: world
Posts: 1213

troverman : If the oil is clear : its fine ! There has been a problem with paint on the inside of the diff coming off and also something with the wear surfaces of the gearwheels. In both cases : black oil... So honey colour : leave it ! If you have 90k miles, you are near to a major service : changing the camshaft belt etc, also the one on the other side for the fuelpump... The tensioner is wise to replace Ã¡nd the waterpump [costs USD100,-], these are all easy to combine. Better then 3 months later take everything apart again for the waterpump...

What is important to check is : glycol contamination in your ATF. There are two posts : one about cooling liquid leaking into the ATF, on about it leaking out... In the ATF it kills the torque converter. If it leaks out and evaporate ; you don't notice until too late.
So check your cooling liquid level regularly. Check your ATF for glycol. If your garage cant : there is a DIY set for about USD100 from the UK with 25 test per set. I just replaced the radiator, but that was abit paranoia in retrospect. Sofar only 4 cases of ruined gearboxes are linked with this problem. But it is very well documented with the ZDF-6-speed-auto boxes from the Jag-S type, BMW 5/6 and JAg
XJTdV6 2.7 . All the sets combining a ZF-box with the aircon/cooling/gearbox combination are prone to get this problem. It's just not known how the odds are...

The issue wtih the 'milky oil' : there should be a breather hose fitted to the diff, ending next to the powersteering reservoir. There is a modified part for it too. The old part could clog up and pop-out leaving an opening for water ingress.. So ask the dealer for the modified part LR54108947 it is about USD 10,- only !

27th Apr 2011 5:59 pm

troverman

Member Since: 09 Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 51

thanks for the info Dan...we have the V8 petrol so no need to worry about the timing belt (it has chains) or tensioner or fuel pump. However, its worth checking into the anti-freeze / ATF issue. Shame on Rover for combining this setup together! I have a co-worker who is having the same issue with his Nissan Pathfinder. Current Rovers:
2005 LR3 V8 SE
1992 Range Rover County
1997 Range Rover 4.0SE

Previous Rovers:
2000 Discovery II SD
1995 Range Rover 4.0SE
1992 Range Rover County

Also Current:
2012 Volkswagen GTI 2.0 TSI
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320
1999 Audi A8 4.2 quattro

27th Apr 2011 6:38 pm

Dan_NL

Member Since: 19 Sep 2010
Location: world
Posts: 1213

Troverman : in europe Nissan had a recall for this issue !

27th Apr 2011 8:54 pm

tlt

Member Since: 02 Sep 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 262

Hi Dan;

It might be useful for others if you posted the suggested part numbers for any upgraded parts, etc. I kinda agree on the high maintenance, but all in all, once the typical stuff is taken care of, it's smooth sailing again. Just the nature of the beast I guess. Paint contamination doesn't explain water in diff, and ALL diffs were not effected by this issue. Everyone issue when it occurs may have various factors contributing. It's great to have a thorough discussion so people can match up their symptoms to the discussion. One size doesn't fit All I suppose.

Now that the Transmission issue has resurfaced, several times, I guess I better get moving on that. Anyone have suggestions on how to get the fluid flushed from the torque converter, etc. without removing it, etc.

cheers

28th Apr 2011 12:27 am

euangibson

Member Since: 24 Dec 2010
Location: Borders
Posts: 11027

2012 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 HSE Auto Firenze Red

Hi Troverman
just replaced my front diff 300 miles ago......the symptoms you described were exactly what I was experiencing....especially while maneuvering at low speeds,and when lifting off the accelerator at speed
My car is late 2005 with 66k on the clock and my indie who did the work said he has never had to replace one (hence his initial scepticism when I said I thought it was the front diff)...he also said LR dont even think the diff oil needs changed till at least 150k miles.
As someone mentioned on here there was an issue with the diff coating reacting with the diff oil,but as far as I can see my car never had any warranty work done with regard to the issue
Total cost over here was approx Â£600 for the diff and Â£300 for labour......you can do the currency conversion

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool,than to speak out and remove all doubt" ?.....what rubbish...

Locking rear E-diff
RLD spare wheel protector & sump guard
Extended roof rails
Series 111 mudflaps
Black side tubes,grill and vents
Timed climate remote
Hids4u interior lights

D4 Firenze my2012 HSE
D3 Java 2005 SE manual (sold,sadly,thanks for the memories)
1966 '88 Series 2a....still starts in the morning better than I do...

28th Apr 2011 9:34 am

troverman

Member Since: 09 Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 51

The new bearing / hub assembly is arriving today; the plan is to install it tonight. It is an SKF product. Job doesn't look too complicated. Hopefully this is the noise / vibration. Will post the results. Current Rovers:
2005 LR3 V8 SE
1992 Range Rover County
1997 Range Rover 4.0SE

Previous Rovers:
2000 Discovery II SD
1995 Range Rover 4.0SE
1992 Range Rover County

Also Current:
2012 Volkswagen GTI 2.0 TSI
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320
1999 Audi A8 4.2 quattro

28th Apr 2011 12:13 pm

troverman

Member Since: 09 Sep 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 51

Completed the job, and...problem solved! The abnormal noises described above are all gone. So be sure to check your wheel bearings before blaming everything on the diff.

There are two difficult parts to this job:

1. The hub is freed by removing four bolts. However, the bolt heads are so close to the CV joint that a ratcheting socket cannot be put on...a regular closed wrench must be used (15mm), and the bolts came out hard.

2. Once the bolts are out and the axle nut off, you have to beat the hub out of its seat with a small sledge. Really, the only spot you can beat is the back of the wheel studs flange. It took probably a good 1/2 hour of beating for it to finally start sliding out.

Other than that, pretty straightforward. Its nice to have this behind us. Current Rovers:
2005 LR3 V8 SE
1992 Range Rover County
1997 Range Rover 4.0SE

Previous Rovers:
2000 Discovery II SD
1995 Range Rover 4.0SE
1992 Range Rover County

Also Current:
2012 Volkswagen GTI 2.0 TSI
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320
1999 Audi A8 4.2 quattro

29th Apr 2011 1:16 pm

tlt

Member Since: 02 Sep 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 262

BFH, good one ;

I think you can use a standard gear puller for it as well, in case you can't locate a hammer. This thread will be a great resource for all, as many of us have had, or are having issues with hubs and differentials. Got my gallery loaded up with a few pics.

cheers

29th Apr 2011 10:12 pm