Member Since: 05 Aug 2017
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 7
Secondary Turbo valve sticking - best course of action...
Hi Everyone - well, there's probably hundreds of people like me on here. Dropping in when you 'need something'. Apologies for that. I've been a reader for some time, but never had anything to contribute.
So I've had 8 weeks of the dream - bought a beautifully cared for D4 TDv6. 90,000 miles and full dealer history - including cam belt. And since buying it, it's been in and out of restricted performance. No real pattern to it, other than only when happens when 2,500rpm + and pulling... An issue with sticking turbo value I hear you say....
And you'd be right.
I am dealing with a fantastic independent garage, who have treated me really well. Previous to them, I went into a not so great indy - who rushed through a daig, and cleared all the faults without so much as an explanation. Told me to put premium and turbo cleaner through it and thrash it up a hill. Which I did.
What happened
So in chronological order, here's whats happened:
- restricted performance probably 3 times - running on supermarket diesel only
- diag showing an issue with the turbo value - but no detail because he rushed
- bottle of wynns turbo cleaner, a tank of premium from esso
- no issues
- another tank of premium, this time with shot of redex for good measure
- no issues
- another tank, this time supermarket diesel, with another shot of redeem and the issue comes back. Has since happened twice on the same tank, a few days apart.
Both before and after the above it was mainly into restricted perforamce with the red warning triangle, but would occasionally recover to an orange after a restart. In all cases, turning the vehicle off for 5 mins and coming back to it got rid of the issue short term. On the last, and probably one other, occasion - it was after a few minutes at idle (took a call whilst stationary that actually lasted 40mins, the straight into limp pulling onto main road)
Fault codes
So back into the good indy this time - full diagnostic returning:
P22D3-77 - TURBOCHARGER TURBINE INLET VALVE STUCK CLOSED (commanded position not reachable)
P22CF-71 - TURBOCHARGER TURBINE INLET VALVE CONTROL CIRCUIT - OPEN (actuator is stuck)
So, clearly we have an issue. The mechanic put it into off-road height, full left lock, removed the two heat shields (as indicated in the other fantastic DIY posts on d3.co.uk) put is hand in and noticed that the solenoid was covered in oil.
He asked me about whether or not I had had the LR044556 oil return pipe mod done, to which I am 99.9% sure it won't have because previous owner has full dealer history and all work under warranty etc. He then explained 'lots of things about oil returning and getting into the turbo' which to be honest about, I didn't fully follow... but I get the gist, that this oil return pipe design flaw (fixed in later models) prevents oil ingest to the turbo system. There was never a recall, just a TSB (LTB00487v6) regarding a different symptom
My question
I have every intention of supporting my local indy, but economics are economics and whilst you don't buy a disco as a cheap motor - nor does it make sense to just go whole hog without thinking about it. Their recommended solution is a complete secondary turbo replacement and return pipe mod (whilst the body's off...) So we're looking at a serious bill.
However, the chaps did say that they could fit the oil return pip mod 'body on'. I wouldn't be really thinking about it, but if the premium gas and turbo cleaner made the issue go away it makes me think that the solenoid/valve is struggling because of the cr4p on the inside (caused by the oil pipe and gentle driving style) not some intricate electro/mechanical failure in the turbo/solenoid itself. Potentially...
Ok, now the actual question...
Do you chaps think it's worth:
A) biting the unfortunate bullet, and have the whole hog replaced... gulp... or
B) having:
- the pipe mod done (body on) only
- the solenoid cleaned and lubed (in situ)
- running it on turbo cleaner and premium for a couple of tanks
Pro: much smaller bill, Con: may or may not fix it - will cost probably 3 hours labour that will be nugatory
I'm minded to take option B, but not if technically what I'm thinking is a total load of whatsname...
As every really appreciate any help/advice/or view this community has (in addition to whats already on here)
NJSSAm I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
5th Aug 2017 12:51 pm
flyingkermit
Member Since: 05 Aug 2017
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 7
Privately. I had previously called the main dealer to get a bit of it's history before buying it, and it's last service was cambelt (now 5k miles ago) and left with a clean bill of health.
5th Aug 2017 12:54 pm
simo938
Member Since: 28 Mar 2016
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 7
I’m having the exact same problem with mine (or same fault codes at least) I haven’t tried the turbo cleaner might have to give that a go, mine seems to go in to limp mode more frequently than you described though as it’s pretty much everytime the RPM goes above 2800, I wanted to take mine to an Indy but haven’t yet as I’m worried about a large bill. Hope you manage to sort yours soon, I love the car but daren’t even overtake anything at the minute for the fear of the dreaded ‘limp mode’ whilst overtaking
7th Aug 2017 11:28 am
simo938
Member Since: 28 Mar 2016
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 7
Well I put some turbo cleaner in today and gave the car a decent run before trying to apply any power. First impressions were positive and then when I applied about 75% acceleration from stand still I had a huge white cloud behind me (looked like a scene from a Batman series ) anyway it would appear that my car definitely hasn’t had the shorter drain pipe mod so will look as sorting that next before progressing any further.
10th Aug 2017 2:07 pm
robpenrose
Member Since: 12 Jan 2016
Location: Surrey / SW London
Posts: 2138
Are you talking about the Turbo Shut Off Valve sticking, or something in the turbo itself?
If its the Turbo Shut Off Value, cant it just be freed off, or replaced?
Current: D4 HSE
Previous: BMW Z4M Coupe
Previous: Land Rover Defender 90 CSW Td5
Previous: Land Rover Discovery Td5 ES
10th Aug 2017 2:35 pm
flyingkermit
Member Since: 05 Aug 2017
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 7
simo938 wrote:
Well I put some turbo cleaner in today and gave the car a decent run before trying to apply any power. First impressions were positive and then when I applied about 75% acceleration from stand still I had a huge white cloud behind me (looked like a scene from a Batman series ) anyway it would appear that my car definitely hasn’t had the shorter drain pipe mod so will look as sorting that next before progressing any further.
Sounds an awful lot like the pipe mod problem that LR issued the TSB for.
On the cleaner, I would logically expect it to take a tank's worth of cleaning to have any true effect on any build up that's causing the issue. The cleaner may treat the symptoms (oil in in the secondary turbo) but the pipe mod might treat the cause...
Be interested to hear how you get on.
Quote from the indy for the pipe mod was/is £350 for reference
Last edited by flyingkermit on 10th Aug 2017 9:51 pm. Edited 1 time in total
10th Aug 2017 9:44 pm
flyingkermit
Member Since: 05 Aug 2017
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 7
robpenrose wrote:
Are you talking about the Turbo Shut Off Valve sticking, or something in the turbo itself?
If its the Turbo Shut Off Value, cant it just be freed off, or replaced?
The fault code is referring to a "TURBOCHARGER TURBINE INLET VALVE" which I believe is controlled by a servo that sits on the outside of the turbo. Which I believe is the barrel shaped solenoid component top left in this picture here
So I think the solenoid can be cleaned in situ, but the inlet valve it controls is clearly internal to the turbo.
So my thoughts are that solving the cause of the obstructing substance (oil from the oil mod) and giving the solenoid a good clean might do the trick... thoughts?
10th Aug 2017 9:48 pm
lynalldiscovery
Member Since: 22 Dec 2009
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 7274
The barrel shaped object is just a std turbo wastegate actuator, never seen ones stick on its own theres really nothing inside to stick, but what I have seen a few times on td5 is the shaft that goes into the turbo body starting to seize, some working and lubing would get them working again, like many trubo diesels I think people drive them to nicely/carefully so they dont get the workout they need to keep healthy.
The wastegate set up is pretty primitive on a std turbo and tbh Im surprised that they even use such an old school set up on the 3.0?
I wonder if it is in fact an electronic actuator that way the car would know it cant reach its intended position?
11th Aug 2017 5:55 am
lynalldiscovery
Member Since: 22 Dec 2009
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 7274
Look at this video and stop it dead on 53 seconds and look at the large unit on the left of the pic with a plug, could be your actuator?
11th Aug 2017 5:59 am
Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6910
if B is only a couple of hundred, why wouldn't you give it a go Joined the BMWX5 45e group
1994 Defender 90
2015 RRS Corris Grey/Black roof
2016 D4 Graphite Santorini Black
2012 D4 XS Orkney Grey
2005 D3 S Maya Gold
Convoy for Heroes 2011
11th Aug 2017 6:03 am
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20842
The CSOV is known to stick in the open position, and there is a modified actuator available
Previously, there was a "low level" repair kit consisting of a new actuator. Now, the only option is a new CSOV...
Exactly the same issue as the D3 turbo actuator, the rod pivot seizes up. These can be freed off in situ and cleaned up
The excess smoke is a secondary issue, and caused by the turbo drain pipe, easily resolved with the drain modification
Member Since: 05 Aug 2017
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 7
Dave T wrote:
if B is only a couple of hundred, why wouldn't you give it a go
Thanks dave - seems like it makes sense. Ill come back to the forum on how it goes
12th Aug 2017 10:32 am
flyingkermit
Member Since: 05 Aug 2017
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 7
Disco_Mikey wrote:
The CSOV is known to stick in the open position, and there is a modified actuator available
Previously, there was a "low level" repair kit consisting of a new actuator. Now, the only option is a new CSOV...
Exactly the same issue as the D3 turbo actuator, the rod pivot seizes up. These can be freed off in situ and cleaned up
The excess smoke is a secondary issue, and caused by the turbo drain pipe, easily resolved with the drain modification
Thanks disco - Mikey
Would you attribute those fault codes with the CSOV though?
12th Aug 2017 10:32 am
G.W.
Member Since: 20 Jan 2013
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 92
I had a very similar problem with mine (see here) and *touch wood* the modified drain has solved it. Managed a 2000 mile European trip dragging the tintent around la belle France this month with ease. No black smoke, full power, full steam ahead.
My dealer did the mod for about £350 (main agent prices, but after a significant jousting match with the haggling stick) so I'd suggest that as your first port of call.
I've previously tried posh diesel, redex etc and noticed a slight change in performance but nothing to make me think that Tesco's finest was in any way to blame for the problems."The quality remains long after the price has been forgotten."Henry Royce
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
) anyway it would appear that my car definitely hasn’t had the shorter drain pipe mod so will look as sorting that next before progressing any further.
