- You are currently viewing DISCO3.CO.UK as a guest - Register to take part or Log In
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
  
|
| Commercial debate ( was in [Wanted] Disco rear Seat) |
|
This is a very touchy thing to do, I looked into it very hard, and if you convert a commercial disco back into a 5 or 7 seat you are on a very sticky wicket.
It invalidates your insurance, it invalidates your road tax, if you declare to HMRC that it is a van and claim so on your P11D you are committing a tax fraud, If VOSA stop you, they will issue a PG9 and a big fine. A commercial Discovery is not classified a a "Dual Purpose Vehicle" so if you use for commercial towing or transporting your own goods that are than sold you need an Operators licence.
If the backs seats are put back in if needs to go for an inspection and retyped it's a major modification. I know people do it but i'm sure they are not aware of what could do wrong!!!!
Anyway just what I have learnt.
Sean
|
 19th Feb 2014 10:13 am |
|
|
AJS4X4
Member Since: 30 Mar 2008
Location: Surrey
Posts: 3224
|
I guess a few have read this and semi-filled there pants.
Good point which I for one did not think of................"what to do"
I wonder if anyone has asked there insurance company ????
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:57 am |
|
|
LiftedDisco
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 999
|
Mmmmnnnn... learnt from where?
In terms of insurance, the issue relates to declaration of any 'material fact' and we had a copy of the Certificate of Compliance that is issued by Atlantech - a copy of this was sent to our company insurers and also sits in the glovebox of each Commercial to produce in the event of being challenged at the roadside.
We DO NOT activate the windows but do remove the black plastic in the doors - this is done as a safety thing as the truck is bloody dangerous on a crowded road or oblique junction if not altered in this way.
We could always start the discussion about tax avoidance and tax evasion - one is legal, the other is likely to get you a stretch inside...
Ours are used for occasional use - normally the vehicles are loaded with site gear and you would be hard pushed to know what lies underneath but there are times when I need to carry clients or crew across sites, hence the seats.
No different to the crew van conversions that take place on VW's, Transits and other such white vans across the country...
It tends to be those who don't need a Commercial that get their knickers in a twist over it and, in reality, it's a very grey area... D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY
D5 Commercial - Handed back when I left that job…
D4 Commercial (2014MY) - gone
D4 Commercial SDV6 - Baltic Blue (also gone)
D1 300TDi... 2" lift, HD bumpers (both), detachable tow hitch, 9,500lb winch, 235/85/16 muds and plenty of other toys (gone to make way for the next toy...)
Smiles per Mile - Tornado Motorsports caged Evo 3... 100" Defender look-alike, with Range Rover running gear - all fully IVA'd and registered!
|
| 19th Feb 2014 9:38 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
Learnt from being a holder of Professional International Haulage qualification (CPC) ie a transport manager,
|
| 19th Feb 2014 9:43 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
Also there is a massive difference in terms of towing, if you tow with a Gross Train weight over 3.5T Ie Disco with trailer/load than you need an operators licence if you are doing so for goods or reward, there are many exceptions Police, Water ,RNLI, but the main one is DUEL PURPOSE VEHICLE, I have been informed by VOSA that a commercial Discovery is not classified as a Dual purpose vehicle, it is a very grey area, but before you condemn me please I have spent mainly hours looking into this.
Not to mention the fact you must have a tacho to use commercailly
|
| 19th Feb 2014 9:49 pm |
|
|
LiftedDisco
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 999
|
7 seat conversion, I would tend to agree, takes you over the limits of any test of reasonableness... whichever way you look at it, someone is trying to make it a 'car'.
5 seats using LR derived parts - this is right on the line and could be hard to argue...
Occasional seats as a conversion - here you need to work with HMRC guidance which is that the vehicle needs to carry 1 tonne with seats in the operational set up. This is possible with the Atlantech option.
Operator's Licence.... whole different issue and addressed in huge detail on here a couple of years or so ago but not something that is unique to D4's and the builder with a transit and a mini-digger on a trailer is far more likely to breach the Operator Licencing regs - probably inadvertently and through ignorance. D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY
D5 Commercial - Handed back when I left that job…
D4 Commercial (2014MY) - gone
D4 Commercial SDV6 - Baltic Blue (also gone)
D1 300TDi... 2" lift, HD bumpers (both), detachable tow hitch, 9,500lb winch, 235/85/16 muds and plenty of other toys (gone to make way for the next toy...)
Smiles per Mile - Tornado Motorsports caged Evo 3... 100" Defender look-alike, with Range Rover running gear - all fully IVA'd and registered!
|
| 19th Feb 2014 9:54 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
I completely agree with your comments, especially Transit / Mini digger, my experience is with commercial towing, and seating, the thing is if you buy a commercial it is built for a reason a two seat commercial Van, I also completely agree with the black out on the rears very dangerous, I have looked into this very hard and have found that it is better to buy a low spec GS remove the 3 row seats and if you like the 2nd row, they are only bolt in, it is still classified as a passenger vehicle and your pay the road tax on it as, HMRC don't like rear seats so install the commercial flat deck and your sorted and its still a dual purpose vehicle.
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:04 pm |
|
|
LiftedDisco
Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 999
|
OK, final post on the subject as this is a bit of a thread hi-jack although it would appear that Andy's needs have been met and we are now into 'information sharing'...
It's all getting a bit mucking fuddled with terms being bandied around and interchanged across intentions and interpretation by HMRC and VOSA when there are actually two very different issues at large.
Seats in a commercial:
May not be 'liked' by HMRC but not actually illegal - bending the law, not breaking it. You can have seats and carry a tonne - all legal and above board.
Towing, operator's licence and dual purpose vehicles:
Done to death earlier on but you do need an OL in a stupidly wide range of situations and there are some truly daft interpretations such as the chap who tows his competition vehicle to an event, wins a prize and is then in need of an Operator's Licence as he is deemed to be working for 'hire or reward'. This is the element that has dispensation for dual purpose vehicles (dual cabs) but only if they have a vehicle weight of something stupidly low - it's absolutely nothing to do with whether they can have seats... D4 Commercial - 65 Plate, 2016MY
D5 Commercial - Handed back when I left that job…
D4 Commercial (2014MY) - gone
D4 Commercial SDV6 - Baltic Blue (also gone)
D1 300TDi... 2" lift, HD bumpers (both), detachable tow hitch, 9,500lb winch, 235/85/16 muds and plenty of other toys (gone to make way for the next toy...)
Smiles per Mile - Tornado Motorsports caged Evo 3... 100" Defender look-alike, with Range Rover running gear - all fully IVA'd and registered!
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:16 pm |
|
|
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
 
|
btw, definition of DPV is that its kerb weight has to be less than 2040kg so d3/4 needs OL whether 2,5,7 seater for towing in any financial reward.
Now the question is this, which would VOSA find it easier to have a pop at.....the "van" version that comes up on their ANPR camera ford galaxy as a "van" where the "GOODS OPERATOR LICENCE" is enforceable
or
Vehicle passes and their ANPR pings back "private passenger vehicle" as its taxation class with more than TWO passenger seats on display, more than 30% rear glass and 40% to the side and not a Goods Vehicle?
Email VOSA's intelligence email address and report a passenger vehicle up to 3500kg towing a trailer for hire or reward and the reply will come back "its not a commercial vehicle thus falls outside of our remit".
Report a LR "van" for the same offence and the reply comes back "thankyou for your info, we're on to it" 
Nowt has changed for the past three years since the law came in to force, "vans" being pulled but not being taken off the road for towing without an OL, just notices for not having a tacho and a slap on the wrist, passenger vehicles towing, vosa are not interested once they have established you have a tacho 
Last edited by character on 19th Feb 2014 10:28 pm. Edited 3 times in total
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:22 pm |
|
|
bigdave
Site Sponsor
Member Since: 04 Jul 2008
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 9870
|
sj9011 wrote:Also there is a massive difference in terms of towing, if you tow with a Gross Train weight over 3.5T Ie Disco with trailer/load than you need an operators licence if you are doing so for goods or reward, there are many exceptions Police, Water ,RNLI, but the main one is DUEL PURPOSE VEHICLE, I have been informed by VOSA that a commercial Discovery is not classified as a Dual purpose vehicle, it is a very grey area, but before you condemn me please I have spent mainly hours looking into this.
Not to mention the fact you must have a tacho to use commercailly
So if I flatten the seats on my 7 seat Non Commercial Disco, and load in parcels, that I am being paid for , im ok?
I do, of course, have business insurance.
Thanks.
Dave
All things shipping, storage, transport. UK and worldwide.
E-mail [email protected]
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:23 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
OK end of subject, agreed 2040Kgs is not compliant with any D3/4 but VOSA except them as a dual purpose vehicle (definition 4 wheel drive, with option of transverse bench seats with rear windows), so double cabs are if they have 4 wheel drive.
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:24 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
Yes if you have tacho,
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:27 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
Character, absolutely spot on!!!! as you and I know!!!
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:29 pm |
|
|
sj9011
Member Since: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Southampton
Posts: 356
|
This response from Character is the gospel, if needs framing and engraving !!!!
Quote:Now the question is this, which would VOSA find it easier to have a pop at.....the "van" version that comes up on their ANPR camera ford galaxy as a "van" where the "GOODS OPERATOR LICENCE" is enforceable
or
Vehicle passes and their ANPR pings back "private passenger vehicle" as its taxation class with more than TWO passenger seats on display, more than 30% rear glass and 40% to the side and not a Goods Vehicle?
Email VOSA's intelligence email address and report a passenger vehicle up to 3500kg towing a trailer for hire or reward and the reply will come back "its not a commercial vehicle thus falls outside of our remit".
Report a LR "van" for the same offence and the reply comes back "thankyou for your info, we're on to it" Thumbs Up
Nowt has changed for the past three years since the law came in to force, "vans" being pulled but not being taken off the road for towing without an OL, just notices for not having a tacho and a slap on the wrist, passenger vehicles towing, vosa are not interested once they have established you have a tacho Whistle
|
| 19th Feb 2014 10:41 pm |
|
|
character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
|
however, just need to avoid a joint road stop with VOSA, POLICE, trading standards......then yer really in the do, do coz police will enforce the OL issue on a passenger vehicle, AND TRADING STANDARDS WILL ISSUE YOU WITH A £600 FINE FOR NOT HAVING A £2 "NO-SMOKING" STICKER in the vehicle if the company name appears on the V5C 
the later is now becoming a headline catcher so I'm sure TS will be invited on forthcoming joint road blocks....BTW its NOT illegal for you to smoke in the yer D3/4 so long as there is no passengers present BUT IT IS ILLEGAL not to display a "non smoking" sign in what is classed as your "place of work"
|
| 19th Feb 2014 11:13 pm |
|
|
|
Posting Rules
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
DISCO3.CO.UK Copyright © 2004-2024 Futuranet Ltd & Martin Lewis
|
|
