Member Since: 03 Mar 2019
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 168
2.7TDV6 RH camshaft pulley spoke failure
There's been a number of failures of the 1311317 RH Camshaft Pulley on the 2.7 TDV6 engines. On all pictures that I've seen it's the spokes of the camshaft pulley that look to have failed. Anyone determined a cause on why these metal spokes are letting go? Has anyone started to replace this pulley as part of the timing belt procedure now to avoid metal fatigue? How common is this issue? Are more happening now as the engines age?
It seems that a few have been very lucky where the failure has resulted in just broken rockers (rather than valves and pistons) and not written the engine off, but many don't seem to have had the same fate requiring a replacement engine.
The LH side has a different pulley design and I've not heard of that side failing.
Have any 3.0 TDV6/SDV6's suffered from the same failure issue (or do there cranks die first)?
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4850
It's mostly the drivers side that fails although I have seen a pass side one shatter too. They are made of cheese, but I suspect some of the drivers side failings can be attributed to incorrect tensioning of the belt or chain failure.
...Before removing the tensioner, slacken off the 3x 13mm bolts on each cam pulley, as it makes it much easier to get the belt back on.
...
This belt has a manual tensioner, and the pointer should be aligned with the upper part of the cutout on the outer part of the tensioner if a new belt has been fitted. The cam pulley bolts can be tightened once the tensioner has been set. Once tensioner has been set and tightened, rotate engine a minimum of 2 times (at the crankshaft) to make sure the engine turns over freely (ignoring compression) and make sure the pins and marks etc all line up again...
Should something be done differently to this to avoid the failure?
I've also seen some discussion last night on a Facebook group of a 3.0 that suffered the same failure.[/quote]Mine - MY09 L319 D3 HSE Lion 2.7 TDV6 and modified MY03 LT L318 Discovery 2a HSE Td5 15P
Hers - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
Dads - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
I agree with PROFSR G When I was doing a lot of cambelts, the number of times I have come to undo the front belt tensioner, and found it either way past the little window or way under.
I am not saying its just sloppy adjusting, but in my experience when adjusting the belt tension, its never right the first time, once you do the twice revolutions of the crank to make sure its free, the belt tensioner as always moved 99% of the time to be to tight.
Flack
7th May 2024 8:51 am
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4850
twr7cx wrote:
Quote:
I suspect some of the drivers side failings can be attributed to incorrect tensioning of the belt...
Can you elaborate on incorrect tensioning of the belt? Under tensioned? Over tensioned?
It's just as Flack describes it, but over tensioning would be my view of pulley failure as it seems some may misunderstand the operation of the tensioner setting. Thus the cam pulley nearest the tensioner gets a higher degree of stress compared with the opposite one, which has a much longer run of belt to absorb the same stress. Nothing scientific here, just a personal hypothesis based on what I have experienced.
...Before removing the tensioner, slacken off the 3x 13mm bolts on each cam pulley, as it makes it much easier to get the belt back on.
...
This belt has a manual tensioner, and the pointer should be aligned with the upper part of the cutout on the outer part of the tensioner if a new belt has been fitted. The cam pulley bolts can be tightened once the tensioner has been set. Once tensioner has been set and tightened, rotate engine a minimum of 2 times (at the crankshaft) to make sure the engine turns over freely (ignoring compression) and make sure the pins and marks etc all line up again...
Quote:
Should something be done differently to this to avoid the failure?
Just follow the manual and all will be fine, check and double check.
Come to think of it I can recall Flack posting an image on here a few years back of a tensioner that was fitted upside down yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
7th May 2024 2:03 pm
Pete K
Member Since: 15 Jan 2016
Location: GL
Posts: 10475
Flack wrote:
I agree with PROFSR G in my experience when adjusting the belt tension, its never right the first time, once you do the twice revolutions of the crank to make sure its free, the belt tensioner as always moved 99% of the time to be to tight.
I'm glad it's not just me.
Isn't that first picture a 3.0 ( because of that electrical valve in pic?)
7th May 2024 2:59 pm
twr7cx
Member Since: 03 Mar 2019
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 168
Flack wrote:
I agree with PROFSR G When I was doing a lot of cambelts, the number of times I have come to undo the front belt tensioner, and found it either way past the little window or way under.
I am not saying its just sloppy adjusting, but in my experience when adjusting the belt tension, its never right the first time, once you do the twice revolutions of the crank to make sure its free, the belt tensioner as always moved 99% of the time to be to tight.
Interesting. The Land Rover repair manual doesn't have anything in it about readjusting the tensioners tension after the two rotations - just check that everything realigns with the pins after two rotations. I assumed that aligning the mark and window was just the start point and it would end up where it needs to after being rotated, rather than the mark and window are where it should stay.Mine - MY09 L319 D3 HSE Lion 2.7 TDV6 and modified MY03 LT L318 Discovery 2a HSE Td5 15P
Hers - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
Dads - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
8th May 2024 2:26 am
twr7cx
Member Since: 03 Mar 2019
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 168
Pete K wrote:
Isn't that first picture a 3.0 ( because of that electrical valve in pic?)
Likely yes. Only one of the pictures is from my MY12 D4 2.7 TDV6, the rest are all from other vehicles.
It seems from my reading of Microcat that all 2.7 and 3.0 TDV6 and SDV6 use the same part number camshaft pulleys.Mine - MY09 L319 D3 HSE Lion 2.7 TDV6 and modified MY03 LT L318 Discovery 2a HSE Td5 15P
Hers - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
Dads - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
8th May 2024 2:28 am
jetmech
Member Since: 22 Feb 2016
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 271
This failure was the final straw for me and my disco, I sold it spares or repair, so will never know if there was an obvious cause. The car had only done 125,000 miles and the belt was replaced at 74000 miles, 8 years ago. The belt change was my next job to do on the car.
Click image to enlarge
Simon.
2008MY Dicovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual
8th May 2024 9:01 am
twr7cx
Member Since: 03 Mar 2019
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 168
Interesting jetmech. Yours, like mine, has happened a fairly long after the initial timing belt change (35,000km/3 years in my case), 59,000miles in your case.Mine - MY09 L319 D3 HSE Lion 2.7 TDV6 and modified MY03 LT L318 Discovery 2a HSE Td5 15P
Hers - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
Dads - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
8th May 2024 11:30 am
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4850
twr7cx wrote:
Interesting. The Land Rover repair manual doesn't have anything in it about readjusting the tensioners tension after the two rotations - just check that everything realigns with the pins after two rotations.
If you noticed the tensioner alignment you had just installed had moved after a few crank rotations, would you just leave it?
The advice for checking after two rotations is as you say to see if everything lines up as before, but also that the tensioner window remains the same. The tensioner is designed to self adjust as the belt stretches over time, so some movement has to happen or the belt would run slack and jump the teeth. However, during installation it should not have any appreciable movement after crank rotation, and needs to be reset if it does. Something has gone wrong during setting. (initial belt teeth not seated or pulleys not adjusted correctly)
jetmech wrote:
This failure was the final straw for me and my disco, I sold it spares or repair, so will never know if there was an obvious cause. The car had only done 125,000 miles and the belt was replaced at 74000 miles, 8 years ago. The belt change was my next job to do on the car.
That's a low mileage for that failure to have happened. I have had D3's with 3 or 400,000kms still on their original pulleys, my own included. Did you investigate if the cam chain on that bank was OK?
You'd think crank failure would be enough to be worrying about without this potential grenade thrown in. yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
8th May 2024 3:15 pm
jetmech
Member Since: 22 Feb 2016
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 271
I have been known to readjust the timing belt tension 3 or 4 times when fitting a new belt, so I don’t think I would have left it if it had moved after the initial setting.
I didn’t investigate the cause at all.Simon.
2008MY Dicovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual
9th May 2024 8:05 am
twr7cx
Member Since: 03 Mar 2019
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 168
PROFSR G wrote:
If you noticed the tensioner alignment you had just installed had moved after a few crank rotations, would you just leave it?
Possibly, yes. If following the Land Rover instructions then yes I could very well do just that and leave it.
There's nothing in the instructions indicating that the window alignment with the groove is anything more than the start point to be set up - there's nothing stating that's where it needs to stay, and I don't know enough about how that tensioner works or self adjusts to be making assumptions on it that don't align with the Land Rover instructions...
The instructions state:
Step 4: align the tensioner window with the groove and torque to spec.
Step 5: torque the camshaft pulley bolts.
Step 6: remove the special tools from the camshaft pulleys and flywheel/flexplate.
Step 7: rotate the engine two complete turns clockwise.
Step 8: refit all the special tools to confirm alignment.
Step 9: remove special tools and reassemble.
There's nothing about rechecking the tensioner position, or that it shouldn't move from where it was set at it initially. It's open that the initial setting was just that - the initial setting and has no relevance to where it should remain.
Now I'm certainly not arguing that this is correct, just attempting to explain the thought process that can result in the tensioner not being readjusted post two clockwise rotations... Your explanation of why it should be checked and readjusted makes a lot of sense - thank you.Mine - MY09 L319 D3 HSE Lion 2.7 TDV6 and modified MY03 LT L318 Discovery 2a HSE Td5 15P
Hers - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
Dads - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
There's nothing about rechecking the tensioner position, or that it shouldn't move from where it was set at it initially. It's open that the initial setting was just that - the initial setting and has no relevance to where it should remain.
Dont forget the guy who wrote this has probably never done a belt job, It all comes down to experience, I have done belts where the tensioner was miles off the window and just shows how much the belts actually stretch over time.
Also dont forget that the two rotation also align the belt to run true center on the sprockets and wheel's, which will also have an effect on the tension.
Flack
12th May 2024 10:11 am
twr7cx
Member Since: 03 Mar 2019
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 168
Out of interested, when readjusting the tensioner post initial rotations after installation, are you finding the tensioner has moved to a position where it has increased or reduced tension on the belt?Mine - MY09 L319 D3 HSE Lion 2.7 TDV6 and modified MY03 LT L318 Discovery 2a HSE Td5 15P
Hers - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
Dads - MY12 L319 D4 Lion 2.7L TDV6
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